# Most Americans oppose offshoring. We need to take action. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 1, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080 "2011-01-01T21:25:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/421 "2011-01-20T12:02:22Z")
We’re supposed to take economic advice from the guy that said this? > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by \*\*Le Jacquelope: \*\*The moment you said price levels do not cause inflation it became plainly obvious that are nothing more than a mindless drooling idiot. Clearly, he thinks price levels cause inflation. I suppose he also thinks the reading on his thermometer in his house makes it warmer or colder outside. :rolleyes: I don’t even understand what his ‘China. Right now’ comment means. He’s not even speaking English at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/422 "2011-01-20T12:13:00Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I don’t even understand what his ‘China. Right now’ comment means. He’s not even speaking English at this point. Do you need a bib, little baby? You’re drooling again. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/423 "2011-01-20T13:30:35Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Do you need a bib, little baby? You’re drooling again. Or, in other words: ‘I got nuthin’. I’m sure you’ve seen this before - perhaps you could just append this to all of your future posts where you don’t even attempt to refute my points? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/424 "2011-01-20T13:36:27Z")
Elsewhere: US jobless numbers announced just now better than expected. Continuing claims lowest since Oct 2008. Yes, offshoring is really killing US jobs.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/425 "2011-01-20T14:56:21Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > China. Right now. > > Shouldn’t you be out selling vacations to Spain to the unemployed or something? I mean, since everyone who loses their job gets a severance package on planet emacknight. First, point to where I said ‘everyone gets a severance.’ Or prove that no one gets a severance. Or shut the fuck up. Or continue to babble about that which you nothing about. I already linked to a cite that refutes your “China now” answer. China’s economy has been growing like crazy since they lifted tariffs and opened trade relations. And they continue to increase imports. Quite the opposite of what you are claiming. So if you have anything relevant to share with the class, take that eraser out of your nose and show us some cites. And no, political cartoons don’t count. 9 pages now and we have yet to see a cat. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/426 "2011-01-20T15:19:12Z")
You know what, I need to apologize. I have a tendency to assume people participating on this message board follow a similar sort of etiquette. When someone makes a claim (ie the price of oil is $88 per barrel) they are generally back it up (see [www.cnbc.com](http://www.cnbc.com)). You have your culture, and that’s fine. We’re all about providing a safe and positive learning experience were people of all sorts of different backgrounds are welcomed and encouraged to participate. But with that said, I feel you should respect that I’ll continue to provide sites that counter the unsubstantiated claims that you make. For example a very brief google search turned up this: "In 1998, China was in its 12th year of negotiations for accession to the World Trade Organization (WTO)—formerly the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT), and had significantly reduced import tariffs. Previously in 1996, China had already introduced cuts to more than 4,000 tariff lines, reducing average tariffs from 35% to 23%; further tariff cuts that took effect October 1, 1997, decreased average tariffs to 17%. " “In 1999, Premier Zhu Rongji signed a bilateral U.S.–China Agricultural Cooperation Agreement, which lifted longstanding Chinese prohibitions on imports of citrus, grain, beef, and poultry. In November 1999, the United States and China reached a historic bilateral market-access agreement to pave the way for China’s accession to the WTO. As part of the far-reaching trade liberalization agreement, China agreed to lower tariffs and abolish market impediments after it joins the world trading body” > **[Economy of China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China)** > > China has an upper middle income developing mixed socialist market economy that incorporates industrial policies and strategic five-year plans. It is the world's second largest economy by nominal GDP, behind the United States, and the world's largest economy since 2016 when measured by purchasing power parity (PPP).\[n 1\] Due to a volatile currency exchange rate, China's GDP as measured in dollars fluctuates sharply. China accounted for 18.6% of global economy in 2022 in PPP terms, China is t... See, that cite describes China reducing tariffs. Now I’ll post a second article talking about how China’s economy grew by 9.8 per cent in the fourth quarter of 2011. [http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20110120/dollar-falls-110120/](http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20110120/dollar-falls-110120/) Together, that paints a picture of lower tariffs being good for the economy. So what was it about China that you thought blustered your argument? Or is this another one of your “traps?” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/427 "2011-01-20T15:35:57Z")
Yeah, I’m sorry I zoned out of this thread for a couple days. That “China is rich because they have tariffs” thing is out-of-one’s-mind wrong. In addition to what has been stated already, look at the track record of US complaints against China in the WTO: > [@](#): > > - On March 3, 2008, the USTR requested WTO dispute resolution consultations with China regarding its discriminatory treatment of U.S. suppliers of financial information services in China. **On November 13, 2008, the USTR announced that China had agreed to eliminate discriminatory restrictions on how U.S. and other foreign suppliers of financial information services do business in China.** > > - On April 10, 2007, the USTR filed two IPR-related cases against China: the first case charges that China has failed to comply with the TRIPS agreement (namely in terms of its enforcement of IPR laws) and the second case charges that China has failed to provide sufficient market access to IPR-related products, namely in terms of trading rights and distribution services. **On January 26, 2009, the WTO ruled that many of China’s IPR enforcement policies failed to WTO obligations and on August 12, 2009 it ruled that many of China’s regulations on trading rights and distribution were WTO inconsistent** (see “Violations of U.S. > Intellectual Property Rights”). > > - On February 5, 2007, the USTR announced it had requested WTO dispute consultations with China over government regulations that give illegal (WTO-inconsistent) import and export subsidies to various industries in China (such as steel, wood, and paper) that distort trade and discriminate against imports. **China’s WTO accession agreement required it to immediately eliminate such subsidies. On November 29, 2007, China formally agreed to eliminate the subsidies in question by January 1, 2008.** > > - On March 30, 2006, the USTR initiated a WTO case against China for its use of discriminatory regulations applied to imported auto parts (which often applies the high tariff rate on finished autos to certain auto parts), stating that the purpose of these rules was to discourage domestic producers from using imported parts and encouraging foreign firms to move production to China. **On February 13, 2008, a WTO panel ruled that China’s discriminatory tariff policy was inconsistent with its WTO obligations (stating that the auto tariffs constituted an internal charge rather than ordinary customs duties, which violated WTO rules on national treatment).** China appealed the decision, but a WTO Appellate Body largely upheld the WTO panels decision. > > - On March 30, 2006, the USTR initiated a WTO case against China for its use of discriminatory regulations applied to imported auto parts (which often applies the high tariff rate on finished autos to certain auto parts), stating that the purpose of these rules was to discourage domestic producers from using imported parts and encouraging foreign firms to move production to China. **On February 13, 2008, a WTO panel ruled that China’s discriminatory tariff policy was inconsistent with its WTO obligations (stating that the auto tariffs constituted an internal charge rather than ordinary customs duties, which violated WTO rules on national treatment).** China appealed the decision, but a WTO Appellate Body largely upheld the WTO panels decision. > > - On March 18, 2004, the USTR announced it had filed a WTO dispute resolution case against China over its discriminatory tax treatment of imported semiconductors. The United States claimed that China applied a 17% VAT rate on semiconductor chips that were designed and made outside China, but gave VAT rebates to domestic producers. Following consultations with the Chinese government, the USTR announced on July 8, 2004, that **China agreed to end its preferential tax policy by April 2005.** However, the USTR has expressed concern over new forms of financial assistance given by the Chinese government to its domestic semiconductor industry. So, pretty much every unfair trade practice (including subsidies and tariffs) that rise to the WTO are being struck down. If China wanted to keep its trade barriers, it never would have joined the WTO. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/428 "2011-01-20T20:40:10Z")
Plus, there’s this: > [@](#): > > TAIPEI (Dow Jones)–Robust demand for Taiwan’s electronics and petrochemical products boosted the island’s export orders in December to a monthly record. > > The government and economists said export orders will likely continue to grow this year on strong demand from China, the U.S. and Europe. **The reduction of tariffs on hundreds of Taiwanese goods sold to China under the China-Taiwan trade pact, which took effect Jan. 1, will also buoy cross-strait trade** , they said. > > \ > “We expect export orders in January will continue to grow steadily because demand usually rises ahead of the Lunar New Year holiday, while **reduction of tariffs will continue to help Taiwanese producers secure more orders, particularly from China** ,” said Huang Ji-Shih, director of the Ministry of Economic Affairs’ statistics department. Does LJ just randomly decide on a position by pulling a feather out of his ass? Clearly he’s not looking at any actual facts. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/429 "2011-01-20T22:28:39Z")
For further reading, consider [http://welkerswikinomics.com/blog/2010/10/04/the-high-cost-of-tariffs/](http://welkerswikinomics.com/blog/2010/10/04/the-high-cost-of-tariffs/) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/430 "2011-01-20T22:34:33Z")
A diagram??? A freaking DIAGRAM??? Supply and demand models??? O…M…G!! This was probably done by one of those friggin’ ‘economics experts’ (_checks_ sure enough, a freaking teacher of economics!! As if they would know anything about this stuff) who don’t know what the fuck they are talking about! :smack: None of this will be convincing to the horned one, at a guess. Such things are for turd burglars and pussyboys who go to school, instead of learning the real life lessons about hard economic facts from the masses, yearning to pay more for good ole American products and services! For one thing, it’s not in the form of either a blog or a YouTube video. For another, The People™ obviously aren’t going to trust the world of some shaggy haired and probably dirty Swede academic who merely teaches economics… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/431 "2011-01-21T00:28:26Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Together, that paints a picture of lower tariffs being good for the economy. > > So what was it about China that you thought blustered your argument? Or is this another one of your “traps?” China still has tariffs, whether they’re reducing them or not. Plus they have another de facto supertariff in the form of their still-devalued currency. All tariffs that have not totally fucked China. In fact their economy grew while they had bigger tariffs. Feel free to get mad now that you fell into your OWN trap. Edited: oh and China’s growth rate is now LOWER than it was in 2010: > **[China GDP Growth Rate](https://tradingeconomics.com/china/gdp-growth)** > > The Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in China expanded 1.10 percent in the second quarter of 2025 over the previous quarter. This page provides - China GDP Growth Rate - actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and... Apparently they got stung BADLY by our recession. Which probably explains why they lost 20 million jobs when we stumbled… Their growth rate was 14% back in 2007 when their tariffs were much higher. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/432 "2011-01-21T00:37:15Z")
So China has used tariffs to dominate the world market except when they haven’t. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/433 "2011-01-21T00:48:05Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > A diagram??? A freaking DIAGRAM??? Supply and demand models??? O…M…G!! This was probably done by one of those friggin’ ‘economics experts’ (_checks_ sure enough, a freaking teacher of economics!! As if they would know anything about this stuff) who don’t know what the fuck they are talking about! :smack: > > None of this will be convincing to the horned one, at a guess. Such things are for turd burglars and pussyboys who go to school, instead of learning the real life lessons about hard economic facts from the masses, yearning to pay more for good ole American products and services! For one thing, it’s not in the form of either a blog or a YouTube video. For another, The People™ obviously aren’t going to trust the world of some shaggy haired and probably dirty Swede academic who merely teaches economics… > > -XT Quoted for fun. > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > China still has tariffs, whether they’re reducing them or not. Plus they have another de facto supertariff in the form of their still-devalued currency. All tariffs that have not totally fucked China. In fact their economy grew while they had bigger tariffs. > > Feel free to get mad now that you fell into your OWN trap. > > Edited: oh and China’s growth rate is now LOWER than it was in 2010: > [China GDP Growth Rate](http://tradingeconomics.com/Economics/GDP-Growth.aspx?Symbol=CNY) > Apparently they got stung BADLY by our recession. Which probably explains why they lost 20 million jobs when we stumbled… > > Their growth rate was 14% back in 2007 when their tariffs were much higher. Were you serious about what you just wrote? Unless you say otherwise I’m going to assume that was all sarcasm, and that this is all a big whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/434 "2011-01-21T00:51:27Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Were you serious about what you just wrote? Unless you say otherwise I’m going to assume that was all sarcasm, and that this is all a big whoosh. What I want to know is how can you seriously ask for proof of tariffs that didn’t fuck up a country when history shows China did in fact have higher economic growth rates when their import tariffs were higher. 14% in 2007 versus 9.8% now with lower tariffs. You can’t even understand simple facts like that. On your planet higher import tariffs and 14% growth means a country is being fucked up. Iggy time. Only an idiot claims tariffs fuck up a country after seeing 14% economic growth in a country with tariffs AND currency pegs like what China had in 2007. You’re an idiot. Bye. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/435 "2011-01-21T00:54:53Z")
Glad that tariffs were the only economic variable that has changed in the past four years. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/436 "2011-01-21T01:13:51Z")
[QUOTE=emacknight] You’re an idiot. Bye. [/QUOTE] Kiss of death time. I do believe you have just joined the growing ranks of 'dopers on Le Jac’s ignore list! :eek: Welcome aboard. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/437 "2011-01-21T01:17:09Z")
Since I know I’m on his ignore list, will someone please point out to you-know-who that China was a member of the WTO in 2007 (well, since 2001, really) when they achieved that vaunted 14% growth rate? Will someone then explain that joining the WTO means that the country has to abide by the same set of regulations that other members have to in terms of market access, tariffs, subsidies, etc. Sure, there’s fudging around the edges, but China and the US are pretty much playing by the same rulebook. The idea that China suddenly dropped tariffs in 2008 is just a fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/438 "2011-01-21T01:22:09Z")
Well, he’s right (much as that hurts to say) about the currency thing, and they certainly have used protectionism to shield their home grown industry while using every advantage they can to augment their exports. But they are starting to feel the effects of their protectionist measures and I think come to realize that they are really only hurting themselves in the long run if they continue (on a similar note, they need to clean up environmentally and need to start respecting international patents and intellectual property or it’s going to seriously bite them in the ass). Le Jac doesn’t get that either, obviously. I’m not sure how many folks still in this thread aren’t on his ignore list. I think DragonAsh and kidchameleon might still be in the horned one’s butter zone, though. -XT ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/439 "2011-01-21T02:02:53Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > What I want to know is how can you seriously ask for proof of tariffs that didn’t fuck up a country (snip) No, what I asked for was proof that tariffs helped an economy. Are you shocked that someone asked you to prove your assertions? Are you offended that I dare challenge your fragile belief system? If you need to look in a magic hat to read some gold plates be my guest. > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > history shows China did in fact have higher economic growth rates when their import tariffs were higher. 14% in 2007 versus 9.8% now with lower tariffs. I don’t give a fuck what “history shows” all I care about is what **Le Jacquelope** shows. If you can’t show me a cat, I won’t believe that it’s behind the door. As per the link I gave you, China has been making dramatic cuts to their import tariffs lowering them from 34% down to 17%, and then continuing to lower them as required by the WTO. Can you show us where China has RAISED tariffs? What the rest of the world sees is a country that made dramatic cuts to tariffs, and then had massive economic growth. You seem to agree with the second part of that, since you claimed China has your example. But yet you disagree with the first, which makes me wonder why you believe China has increased tariffs over the past 2 decades. If that is the case, all you have to do is open the door and show us the cat. Is there a cat? Or are these simply more unsubstantiated claims? > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > You can’t even understand simple facts like that. On your planet higher import tariffs and 14% growth means a country is being fucked up. The simple fact is that China used to have import tariffs over 34%, and lower them, resulting in 14% growth. We call that correlation. When two things occur together. You have yet to show correlation, yet you’ve spent 10 pages here, and multiple threads elsewhere, claiming causation. Show us a cat. > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Iggy time. Only an idiot claims tariffs fuck up a country after seeing 14% economic growth in a country with tariffs AND currency pegs like what China had in 2007. You’re an idiot. Bye. 14% economic growth represents a rate of change. Over the past two decades China has REDUCED their tariffs, and that resulted in 14% economic growth. I asked for country that increased tariffs and saw growth. Can you name a country over the past 20 years that has made significant increases to import tariffs and realized economic gain? You know what, know that we’re all on ignore this could actually turn into a meaningful discussion about the appropriate level of protectionism a country should employ–interspersed with random nonsense from **Le Jacquelope** directed at no one in particular. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/440 "2011-01-21T03:02:42Z")
Life on planet emacknight: “If we didn’t have offshoring no one could afford iPods!” “If we didn’t make the Model T overseas no one would have afforded Fords!” “If we didn’t send jobs overseas all technological developments would stop and we’d all be poor!” “Tariffs fucked up China! 14% growth! See how fucked up that is!” 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080.md?page=23)