# Most Americans oppose offshoring. We need to take action. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 1, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080 "2011-01-01T21:25:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![glilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/48db29/32.png) [@glilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glilly)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/781 "2011-03-05T23:39:05Z")
Le Jaci, A tariff scheme won’t change economic basics. This will include the business cycle, so the demand for labor will vary with the general state of the economy. If your scheme were implemented, and during a recession unemployment rose, how would you respond to critics who then said that that tariffs weren’t preventing unemployment and should therefore be repealed? ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/782 "2011-03-06T09:41:16Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > You really don’t get the concept of comparative advantage, do you? Actually it’s you who don’t get it. What we’re seeing in offshoring is labor arbitrage, not comparative advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/783 "2011-03-06T10:20:25Z")
This is why none of you understand what comparative advantage is. Under comparative advantage America would be theoretically moving workers into a knowledge-based economy while importing goods produced by other countries dabbling in lower industries (like, say, manufacturing). The reality is, instead, global labor arbitrage. We are being reduced to an economy where growth is primarily occurring in nontradable domestic services that can’t be outsourced - which also just happens to be the lowest paying crap. Global growth in knowledge-based jobs to service the American market is going primarily to foreigners, not American workers. Meanwhile, as Ian Fletcher pointed out, this is adding to our national debt. Eventually America will run out of jobs to export and at that point China and India, among others, will collapse. None of you have an answer for this. You’re happy to just close your eyes and hope for the best… but that’s how all pro-offshoring arguments go, anyway: betting on benefits that have never materialized. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/784 "2011-03-07T04:45:43Z")
You realise that the concept of global labor arbitage was developed by an American economist who now works in the asian branch of US investment bank, correct? > **[Stephen S. Roach](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_S._Roach)** > > Stephen Samuel Roach (born September 16, 1945) is an American economist. He serves as senior fellow at Yale University’s Jackson Institute for Global Affairs, and a senior lecturer at the Yale School of Management. He was formerly chairman of Morgan Stanley Asia, and chief economist at Morgan Stanley, the New York City-based investment bank. In 2009, Dirk Bezemer, a Professor of Economics at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands, noted that Roach was one of the earliest to have predict... I’m not disputing that engaing in free trade where one country has an absolute advantage (as oposed to comparative) can be, in fact, a detriment to the wealthier nation - I just think it’s a bit ironic. I also think that focusing on the losses caused by absolute advantage misses the point that they are sometimes necessary in order to gain the benefits of comparative advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/785 "2011-03-07T16:55:08Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > You realise that the concept of global labor arbitage was developed by an American economist who now works in the asian branch of US investment bank, correct? > > [Stephen S. Roach - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_S._Roach) > > I’m not disputing that engaing in free trade where one country has an absolute advantage (as oposed to comparative) can be, in fact, a detriment to the wealthier nation - I just think it’s a bit ironic. > > I also think that focusing on the losses caused by absolute advantage misses the point that they are sometimes necessary in order to gain the benefits of comparative advantage. Benefits that, in fact, have not materialized. In reality that’s called getting scammed. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/786 "2011-03-07T17:08:34Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Benefits that, in fact, have not materialized. > > In reality that’s called getting scammed. America hasn’t gotten any benefits from free market trade, ever? ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/787 "2011-03-08T15:51:44Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > America hasn’t gotten any benefits from free market trade, ever? Lower prices for some things. That’s all. In exchange we’ve had wages stagnate and fall behind inflation, job growth stagnated and fell behind working class population growth, the jobs that were created pay less, and our national debt is being directly affected by the trade deficits. We’re not allocating manufacturing workers to knowledge industry jobs, because there will never be enough knowledge industry or service jobs to match the number of manufacturing workers laid off. We’re reallocating them to the unemployment line - and we have been doing so since long before the recent crash. The recent crash was caused less by the subprime collapse, than because the economy was hollowed out in the middle. The subprime crash was merely the final straw that broke the economy’s back. And… in light of the fact that wages haven’t keeping up with inflation for the last 10 years, you can’t even say offshoring has given us lower prices. So, no, the reckless pursuit of free trade has given us no benefits. In fact it has been a net negative for America’s working class. Except for the rich, that is. But in your universe as long as the rich benefit, who cares if the working class flounders? That’s why you will never get the support of the working class behind offshoring. They will eventually defeat you… or the economy will simply collapse and put an end to offshoring. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/788 "2011-03-08T15:54:51Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > FTR, it’s _not_ a low-wage gardening job. It’s a minimum wage job. Quit your bullshitting. Now scurry along, little kid. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/789 "2011-03-08T16:47:50Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > It’s a minimum wage job. Quit your bullshitting. Now scurry along, little kid. I’ll take **Rhythmdvl’s** word over yours as far as what he pays his gardener. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/790 "2011-03-08T17:41:15Z")
I see that Le Jac is still spouting complete nonsense and that the thread is still shuffling along, as he gives it just enough hydrogen to keep the fires burning. [QUOTE=Le Jacquelope] Lower prices for some things. That’s all. [/QUOTE] So, from free trade we’ve gotten some lower prices ‘for some things’ and that’s it? Except for the rich, of course. You are skipping back and forth across the shark (that you jumped on your second day on this board) at a rate that is too fast to follow. 😛 You aren’t even an amusing troll, since you are just so freaking stupid. It’s hard to take someone spouting your level of horseshit seriously enough to work up a good laugh over. -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/791 "2011-03-08T17:47:53Z")
I saw a TV blurb on a new show. They went into a persons home and checked for anything made in America. When they got done removing all that was made outside, all that was left was a vase. Then they replaced everything in the home with American made products. The products were as good and much of it was cheaper. It can be done. You can buy American made products. The house afterward, had no TV though. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/792 "2011-03-08T20:47:06Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > I’ll take **Rhythmdvl’s** word over yours as far as what he pays his gardener. You’ll take the word of any troll that defends offshoring. The fact of the matter is your backs are to the wall and you’ll drink any amount of purple kool-aid that you need to in order to stay immersed in your comparative advantage fantasy world. But eventually you will be dragged out kicking and screaming into reality. The more kicking and the louder the screaming, the better. > [@gonzomax](#): > > I saw a TV blurb on a new show. They went into a persons home and checked for anything made in America. When they got done removing all that was made outside, all that was left was a vase. > \*\* Then they replaced everything in the home with American made products. The products were as good and much of it was cheaper. It can be done.\*\* You can buy American made products. > The house afterward, had no TV though. Ouch. You know that stung this pro-offshoring crowd. That stung badly. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/793 "2011-03-08T21:19:33Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You aren’t even an amusing troll, since you are just so freaking stupid. It’s hard to take someone spouting your level of horseshit seriously enough to work up a good laugh over. > > -XT It’s true, he’s not that funny. I suggest this thread - [Wow, Jaquelope. You are all kinds of nuts! - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=599912). Much better. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/794 "2011-03-08T22:06:57Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > You’ll take the word of any troll that defends offshoring. STFU troll. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/795 "2011-03-09T18:08:32Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > STFU troll. Dude, you’re the one who says Americans are better off working as minimum wage gardeners than $30/hour factory line workers. You’re the one who believes Americans are better off unemployed than building iPods for $15/hour. Because being unemployed earns you a trip to Spain or some bullshit. In your universe they’re better off being cashiers at Wal Mart for minimum wage than being a customer service rep which used to earn far better than minimum wage. That’s the problem with you trolls - your ideas bring America’s standard of living down. You just don’t give a shit. It’s even odds as to whether you live here or China. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/796 "2011-03-09T18:22:35Z")
Let’s review the timeline because, as has been pointed out to you many times, people can actually go back and read what was written. **Rhythmdvl** talks some about his gardener. He then goes on to describe his gardener’s background and education, and specifically says that it’s not a minimum wage job. You then call him a liar and insist that it must be a minimum wage job. I said that I’m more willing to accept **Rhythmdvl’s** word on what he pays his gardener, and you call me a troll. I won’t go into you swallowing **gonzomax’s** utterly stupid anecdote (for which he offers zero cites) that you immediately accept as truth because it fits your worldview. I used to think you were a True Believer, and that you were actually discussing things honestly (or at least as honestly as you are capable of arguing), but now it’s clear. You’re a troll. Feel free to take my refusal to engage you any further as a victory if you wish, but nobody else will agree with you (except **gonzomax** ). That having been said, my only response to anything else you post will be as follows: STFU troll. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/797 "2011-03-09T18:26:17Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Let’s review the timeline because, as has been pointed out to you many times, people can actually go back and read what was written. The review is you’re an idiot and your breath smells like horseshit. > [@](#): > > That having been said, my only response to anything else you post will be as follows: > > STFU troll. And my response to a chickenshit anti-American troll like you is ignore. Now you are utterly powerless. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/798 "2011-03-09T18:39:00Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > The review is you’re an idiot and your breath smells like horseshit. I dunno, your mom sure didn’t complain last night. > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > And my response to a chickenshit anti-American troll like you is ignore. Now you are utterly powerless. Ignore is for pussies. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/799 "2011-03-10T20:10:52Z")
Lord Rashtard, would you rather America’s economy collapse under our mounting foreign debt, instead of tariffs being raised? Your chances of there being any Option C are vacillating between Slim and None and Slim is getting offshored. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080/800 "2011-03-10T20:15:46Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Lord Rashtard, would you rather America’s economy collapse under our mounting foreign debt, instead of tariffs being raised? > > Your chances of there being any Option C are vacillating between Slim and None and Slim is getting offshored. What good is the ignore feature if you keep reading my posts? Partial credit for adapting an **Army of Darkness** quote in your attempt to insult me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-americans-oppose-offshoring-we-need-to-take-action/566080.md?page=41)