# Most Decisive Naval Battle (Game Thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 24, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459 "2011-02-24T16:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/221 "2011-04-29T17:30:43Z")
20th Round round. We down to final 5 so will do 1 at a time elimination and 2 votes per person. Diu is outta here Remaining: Marmara (677) - Greek Fire stopped the Arabs outside Constantinople - and the Byzantines would roadblock Islam for another 700 years. Midway: U.S ambushes Japanese fleet Salamis: Greeks turned back Persian fleet Trafalgar: Brits won against France/Spain in Nap.war Eliminated: Sinking of the Lusitania – One sided, but helped doom the Germans in the big picture. Kamikazi “divine winds” origin – Mongol invasion of Japan fails due to typhoon H.L. Hunley sinking the Housatonic - The first submarine to sink an enemy vessel. Baltimore - AKA the attack on Fort McHenry Flamborough Head – I have not yet begun to fight! The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 - the first battle vessel sunk using ship-to-ship missiles. Denmark Strait - The Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen of Germany meet the Prince of Wales and the Hood of Britain. Hampton Roads: USS Monitor vs. CSS Virginia - first ironclad duel Operation Dynamo – Evacuation of Dunkirk allowed the Allies to live to fight another day Bismarck Sea: The Cannae of airpower vs naval power Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse - The blow from which the British Empire never recovered Cartagena de Indias – British beaten by Spain in Colombia New Orleans: Farragut captures biggest Confederate city Falkland Islands in World War 1 seems pretty decisive. Lake Erie: Perry defeats British fleet; “We have met the enemy…” Cape Bon ( 468 ) - Vandals destroy combined Roman fleet, nail in the coffin for the Western Empire. Noryang – Japanese invasions of Korea repelled Coral Sea – Introduction of aircraft carriers facing each other The Battle of the Philippine Sea - aka The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot - The USN destroyed the remnants of the IJN carrier force. Taranto: ascendancy of the airplane over the “fleet in being” (even more notable considering the small, weak, obsolescent air units involved) Manila Bay – Led to Dewey being given the unique (at least for USA) honor of Admiral of the Navy Jutland During WWI- Germany effectively neutralized. Leyte Gulf: Swan song for Imperial Japan The Yalu - Japan’s victory was the start of Japanese imperial expansion, and a death blow to the Qing Empire. Yamen – Mongol-controlled Yuan Dynasty crushed Song Dynasty in China Glorious First of June: Decisive British win over French Pearl Harbor - Japan is allowed to run amok and capture large amounts of territory Quiberon Bay - the cherry on the Year of Victory, it secured control over the Atlantic for Britain and doomed French Canada. The Masts - Arabs/Islam take to the sea and kick Byzantium butt. Second Battle of Syracuse/Sicilian Expedition – Athenian expedition cut off/wiped out. Chesapeake: French defeat British; Cornwallis doomed Hansan - Brilliant maneuvering leads to key victory in Imjin War. Sluys - Massive French invasion fleet annihilated, preempting a descent on England. Lepanto: Ottoman high water (heh) mark Actium - Octavian defeats Mark Antony; takes Roman Empire. The Downs - Larger Spanish fleet crushed, rise of Dutch dominance. The Nile: strategically more important Napoleonic battle than Trafalgar Tsushima - Japan annihilates the Russian fleet Gravelins: Spanish Armada turned back by England to meet their famous fate. Aegospotami - Lysander’s destruction of the Athenian navy finished the Athenian Empire. Myeongnyang - Shattered remnants of Korean fleet holds off and smashes a massively larger Japanese invasion fleet. Battle of the Aegates Islands – Rome ends 23-year First Punic War, assumes lasting naval dominance Black May-when the Western Allies got the upper hand against the u-boats for good. Diu: Portuguese smash the Ottoman/Mamluk/Indian fleet Round 21 due by say 2:00 Central Tuesday. ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/222 "2011-04-29T18:23:40Z")
Mamara - 2 ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/223 "2011-04-29T19:11:40Z")
Yea same here Mamara - 2 ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/224 "2011-05-02T01:58:58Z")
Sticking with: Marmara – 1 and, if for no other reason than I don’t like a unanimous choice at this stage of the game: Midway – 1 ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/225 "2011-05-03T17:00:37Z")
21th Round round. We down to final 5 so will do 1 at a time elimination and 2 votes per person. Marmara is outta here. WHile I agree it probably should have been outted sooner…the idea of a big Byzantium win making it this far doesn’t trouble me. Byzantium is one of the biggest punching bags in history and them winning big…is something 😃 Remaining: Midway: U.S ambushes Japanese fleet Salamis: Greeks turned back Persian fleet Trafalgar: Brits won against France/Spain in Nap.war Eliminated: Sinking of the Lusitania – One sided, but helped doom the Germans in the big picture. Kamikazi “divine winds” origin – Mongol invasion of Japan fails due to typhoon H.L. Hunley sinking the Housatonic - The first submarine to sink an enemy vessel. Baltimore - AKA the attack on Fort McHenry Flamborough Head – I have not yet begun to fight! The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 - the first battle vessel sunk using ship-to-ship missiles. Denmark Strait - The Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen of Germany meet the Prince of Wales and the Hood of Britain. Hampton Roads: USS Monitor vs. CSS Virginia - first ironclad duel Operation Dynamo – Evacuation of Dunkirk allowed the Allies to live to fight another day Bismarck Sea: The Cannae of airpower vs naval power Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse - The blow from which the British Empire never recovered Cartagena de Indias – British beaten by Spain in Colombia New Orleans: Farragut captures biggest Confederate city Falkland Islands in World War 1 seems pretty decisive. Lake Erie: Perry defeats British fleet; “We have met the enemy…” Cape Bon ( 468 ) - Vandals destroy combined Roman fleet, nail in the coffin for the Western Empire. Noryang – Japanese invasions of Korea repelled Coral Sea – Introduction of aircraft carriers facing each other The Battle of the Philippine Sea - aka The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot - The USN destroyed the remnants of the IJN carrier force. Taranto: ascendancy of the airplane over the “fleet in being” (even more notable considering the small, weak, obsolescent air units involved) Manila Bay – Led to Dewey being given the unique (at least for USA) honor of Admiral of the Navy Jutland During WWI- Germany effectively neutralized. Leyte Gulf: Swan song for Imperial Japan The Yalu - Japan’s victory was the start of Japanese imperial expansion, and a death blow to the Qing Empire. Yamen – Mongol-controlled Yuan Dynasty crushed Song Dynasty in China Glorious First of June: Decisive British win over French Pearl Harbor - Japan is allowed to run amok and capture large amounts of territory Quiberon Bay - the cherry on the Year of Victory, it secured control over the Atlantic for Britain and doomed French Canada. The Masts - Arabs/Islam take to the sea and kick Byzantium butt. Second Battle of Syracuse/Sicilian Expedition – Athenian expedition cut off/wiped out. Chesapeake: French defeat British; Cornwallis doomed Hansan - Brilliant maneuvering leads to key victory in Imjin War. Sluys - Massive French invasion fleet annihilated, preempting a descent on England. Lepanto: Ottoman high water (heh) mark Actium - Octavian defeats Mark Antony; takes Roman Empire. The Downs - Larger Spanish fleet crushed, rise of Dutch dominance. The Nile: strategically more important Napoleonic battle than Trafalgar Tsushima - Japan annihilates the Russian fleet Gravelins: Spanish Armada turned back by England to meet their famous fate. Aegospotami - Lysander’s destruction of the Athenian navy finished the Athenian Empire. Myeongnyang - Shattered remnants of Korean fleet holds off and smashes a massively larger Japanese invasion fleet. Battle of the Aegates Islands – Rome ends 23-year First Punic War, assumes lasting naval dominance Black May-when the Western Allies got the upper hand against the u-boats for good. Diu: Portuguese smash the Ottoman/Mamluk/Indian fleet Marmara (677) - Greek Fire stopped the Arabs outside Constantinople - and the Byzantines would roadblock Islam for another 700 years. Round 22 due by say 2:00 Central Friday. ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/226 "2011-05-03T17:52:00Z")
Well, my WW2 fanboi wants to vote for something not Midway related, but we’ve got the battle that allowed Western Civilization to become what it is today and the battle that ushered in the Pax Britannica - so, of the three left - Midway - 2 ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/227 "2011-05-04T00:21:02Z")
Midway - 2 as well ---
**Author:** ![Goggles03](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@Goggles03](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Goggles03)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/228 "2011-05-04T01:16:19Z")
Excellent thread. Who knew I could learn this much about obscure naval conflicts? ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/229 "2011-05-04T03:02:48Z")
Gotta go with the flow and stick with: Midway – 2 ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/230 "2011-05-04T13:28:00Z")
Well…fine. I am a weird duck so I am going to say Trafalgar - 2. WWII was the biggest naval engagement in history…should make the top 2! 🙂 So what of the Brits get conquered by France! Maybe their food would be better today 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/231 "2011-05-04T14:26:27Z")
**Midway** - 2. The idea of a _modern_ battle winning fills me with horror - it’s sail n’ oars or nothing ;). ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/232 "2011-05-04T16:32:38Z")
I’ve been noodling for weeks over Trafalgar’s final position. While I accept the logic that Japan was ultimately doomed with or without Midway, Trafalgar may not even have been the most decisive battle Nelson fought, if you look at Aboukir Bay/the Nile. Both Midway and Trafalgar served as archetypal examples of dynamic new methods in naval warfare. But Salamis was for all the marbles, culturally speaking. Not without regret, I’ll settle for voting _against_ Midway, despite having recently read a brilliant and revealing treatment of that battle, _[Shattered Sword](http://www.shatteredswordbook.com/)_. Midway - 2 ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/233 "2011-05-04T18:11:42Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I’ve been noodling for weeks over Trafalgar’s final position. While I accept the logic that Japan was ultimately doomed with or without Midway, Trafalgar may not even have been the most decisive battle Nelson fought, if you look at Aboukir Bay/the Nile. > > Both Midway and Trafalgar served as archetypal examples of dynamic new methods in naval warfare. But Salamis was for all the marbles, culturally speaking. > > Not without regret, I’ll settle for voting _against_ Midway, despite having recently read a brilliant and revealing treatment of that battle, _[Shattered Sword](http://www.shatteredswordbook.com/)_. > > Midway - 2 Looks like a good book. Added it to wish list in Amazon. ---
**Author:** ![merrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@merrick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merrick)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/234 "2011-05-04T21:18:17Z")
I seem to have missed the last couple of rounds (oops - not that I have much idea what I would have voted for). Of the last three, Salamis was for all the marbles _if_ you buy Herodotus’s account and _if_ you assume that a victorious Xerxes would have created a Satrapy of Greece and had it stick around long enough to matter. Both of which appear probable but not certain. Midway was hugely influential _if_ you assume that a defeat would have been more than a speedbump on the USN’s march across the Central Pacific. The US was always going to win, but _how_ they won mattered. Trafalgar, of course, was Trafalgar. You can argue that the Nile was more strategically important (you can also argue that Brueys’s fleet was already badly depleted, Napoleon’s army was effectively trapped, and the greatest strategic outcome of the campaign was Nelson’s _failure_ to send Napoleon to the bottom of the Mediterranean on his way to Egypt), but fifty years after Trafalgar people (not just in the UK) looked at the world around them and said “this all came from Trafalgar”. They didn’t say that fifty years after Midway. Did they say it fifty years after Salamis, as Athens and Sparta squared up for the war that would cripple Greece? Maybe. Midway - 2 ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/235 "2011-05-05T12:22:08Z")
Just to add that _Shattered Sword_ is, imo, an excellent treatment of the Battle of Midway from the Japanese perspective, and certainly lays a number of “Midway Myths” to rest, along with Fuchida’s credibility, but that verges on spoiler material, so…go read it! ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/236 "2011-05-05T14:02:55Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > **Midway** - 2. The idea of a _modern_ battle winning fills me with horror - it’s sail n’ oars or nothing ;). Spoken like by someone who would choose the name Tamerlane 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/237 "2011-05-05T16:32:42Z")
Ooo, it hurts, but I’ll vote: Midway - 1 Trafalgar - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/238 "2011-05-05T18:00:51Z")
Poking my nose in to say that, though I haven’t been voting lately, i have been reading - excellent, informative thread. I’ll vote this time - 2 to Midway. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/239 "2011-05-06T01:20:27Z")
2 for Midway. Next one won’t be an easy decision, though. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/240 "2011-05-06T17:12:03Z")
22nd Round round. We down to final 5 so will do 1 at a time elimination and 2 votes per person. Midway is history. Remaining: Salamis: Greeks turned back Persian fleet Trafalgar: Brits won against France/Spain in Nap.war Eliminated: Sinking of the Lusitania – One sided, but helped doom the Germans in the big picture. Kamikazi “divine winds” origin – Mongol invasion of Japan fails due to typhoon H.L. Hunley sinking the Housatonic - The first submarine to sink an enemy vessel. Baltimore - AKA the attack on Fort McHenry Flamborough Head – I have not yet begun to fight! The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 - the first battle vessel sunk using ship-to-ship missiles. Denmark Strait - The Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen of Germany meet the Prince of Wales and the Hood of Britain. Hampton Roads: USS Monitor vs. CSS Virginia - first ironclad duel Operation Dynamo – Evacuation of Dunkirk allowed the Allies to live to fight another day Bismarck Sea: The Cannae of airpower vs naval power Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse - The blow from which the British Empire never recovered Cartagena de Indias – British beaten by Spain in Colombia New Orleans: Farragut captures biggest Confederate city Falkland Islands in World War 1 seems pretty decisive. Lake Erie: Perry defeats British fleet; “We have met the enemy…” Cape Bon ( 468 ) - Vandals destroy combined Roman fleet, nail in the coffin for the Western Empire. Noryang – Japanese invasions of Korea repelled Coral Sea – Introduction of aircraft carriers facing each other The Battle of the Philippine Sea - aka The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot - The USN destroyed the remnants of the IJN carrier force. Taranto: ascendancy of the airplane over the “fleet in being” (even more notable considering the small, weak, obsolescent air units involved) Manila Bay – Led to Dewey being given the unique (at least for USA) honor of Admiral of the Navy Jutland During WWI- Germany effectively neutralized. Leyte Gulf: Swan song for Imperial Japan The Yalu - Japan’s victory was the start of Japanese imperial expansion, and a death blow to the Qing Empire. Yamen – Mongol-controlled Yuan Dynasty crushed Song Dynasty in China Glorious First of June: Decisive British win over French Pearl Harbor - Japan is allowed to run amok and capture large amounts of territory Quiberon Bay - the cherry on the Year of Victory, it secured control over the Atlantic for Britain and doomed French Canada. The Masts - Arabs/Islam take to the sea and kick Byzantium butt. Second Battle of Syracuse/Sicilian Expedition – Athenian expedition cut off/wiped out. Chesapeake: French defeat British; Cornwallis doomed Hansan - Brilliant maneuvering leads to key victory in Imjin War. Sluys - Massive French invasion fleet annihilated, preempting a descent on England. Lepanto: Ottoman high water (heh) mark Actium - Octavian defeats Mark Antony; takes Roman Empire. The Downs - Larger Spanish fleet crushed, rise of Dutch dominance. The Nile: strategically more important Napoleonic battle than Trafalgar Tsushima - Japan annihilates the Russian fleet Gravelins: Spanish Armada turned back by England to meet their famous fate. Aegospotami - Lysander’s destruction of the Athenian navy finished the Athenian Empire. Myeongnyang - Shattered remnants of Korean fleet holds off and smashes a massively larger Japanese invasion fleet. Battle of the Aegates Islands – Rome ends 23-year First Punic War, assumes lasting naval dominance Black May-when the Western Allies got the upper hand against the u-boats for good. Diu: Portuguese smash the Ottoman/Mamluk/Indian fleet Marmara (677) - Greek Fire stopped the Arabs outside Constantinople - and the Byzantines would roadblock Islam for another 700 years. Midway: U.S ambushes Japanese fleet Final round due by 2:00 Central Monday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459.md?page=13)