# Most Decisive Naval Battle (Game Thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 24, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459 "2011-02-24T16:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/41 "2011-02-28T17:04:19Z")
Ok First round: Sinking of the Lusitania - 24 Kamakazi “divine winds” origin - 24 These 2 are eliminated. Others got: Hampton Roads - 6 Operation Dynamo - 6 Midway - 4 Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse - 3 The Battle of the Philippine Sea - 3 Nile - 2 The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 - 2 Jutland - 1 Black May - 1 Coral Sea - 1 Remaining: Actium - Octavian defeats Mark Antony; takes Roman Empire. Battle of the Aegates Islands – Rome ends 23-year First Punic War, assumes lasting naval dominance Aegospotami - Lysander’s destruction of the Athenian navy finished the Athenian Empire. Baltimore - AKA the attack on Fort McHenry Bismarck Sea: The Cannae of airpower vs naval power Black May-when the Western Allies got the upper hand against the u-boats for good. Cape Bon ( 468 ) - Vandals destroy combined Roman fleet, nail in the coffin for the Western Empire. Cartagena de Indias – British beaten by Spain in Colombia Chesapeake: French defeat British; Cornwallis doomed Coral Sea – Introduction of aircraft carriers facing each other Denmark Strait - The Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen of Germany meet the Prince of Wales and the Hood of Britain. Diu: Portuguese smash the Ottoman/Mamluk/Indian fleet The Downs - Larger Spanish fleet crushed, rise of Dutch dominance. Operation Dynamo – Evacuation of Dunkirk allowed the Allies to live to fight another day Falkland Islands in World War 1 seems pretty decisive. Flamborough Head – I have not yet begun to fight! Glorious First of June: Decisive British win over French Gravelins: Spanish Armada turned back by England to meet their famous fate. H.L. Hunley sinking the Housatonic - The first submarine to sink an enemy vessel. Hampton Roads: USS Monitor vs. CSS Virginia - first ironclad duel Hansan - Brilliant maneuvering leads to key victory in Imjin War. Jutland During WWI- Germany effectively neutralized. The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 - the first battle in which a vessel was sunk using ship-to-ship guided missiles. Lake Erie: Perry defeats British fleet; “We have met the enemy…” Lepanto: Ottoman high water (heh) mark Leyte Gulf: Swan song for Imperial Japan Manila Bay – Led to Dewey being given the unique (at least for USA) honor of Admiral of the Navy Marmara (677) - Greek Fire stopped the Arabs outside Constantinople - and the Byzantines would roadblock Islam for another 700 years. The Masts - Arabs/Islam take to the sea and kick Byzantium butt. Midway: U.S ambushes Japanese fleet Myeongnyang - Shattered remnants of Korean fleet holds off and smashes a massively larger Japanese invasion fleet. New Orleans: Farragut captures biggest Confederate city Pearl Harbor - Japan is allowed to run amok and capture large amounts of territory The Nile: strategically more important Napoleonic battle than Trafalgar Noryang – Japanese invasions of Korea repelled The Battle of the Philippine Sea - aka The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot - The USN destroyed the remnants of the IJN carrier force. Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse - The blow from which the British Empire never recovered Quiberon Bay - the cherry on the Year of Victory, it secured control over the Atlantic for Britain and doomed French Canada. Salamis: Greeks turned back Persian fleet Sluys - Massive French invasion fleet annihilated, preempting a descent on England. Second Battle of Syracuse/Sicilian Expedition – Athenian expedition cut off/wiped out. Taranto: ascendancy of the airplane over the “fleet in being” (even more notable considering the small, weak, obsolescent air units involved) Trafalgar: Brits won against France/Spain in Nap.war Tsushima - Japan annihilates the Russian fleet The Yalu - Japan’s victory was the start of Japanese imperial expansion, and a death blow to the Qing Empire. Yamen – Mongol-controlled Yuan Dynasty crushed Song Dynasty in China Eliminated: Sinking of the Lusitania – One sided, but helped doom the Germans in the big picture. Kamakazi “divine winds” origin – Mongol invasion of Japan fails due to typhoon Round 2 due by Noon Central Weds. (2 days from now) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/42 "2011-02-28T17:25:03Z")
Bartman: Even extending the war a year (a real hypothetical given the U.S.'s development of the Bomb), would have meant the Japanese would have more time to get more planes and ships developed and more troops transported to locations like Guadacanal. The Japanese might have been able to invade New Guinea and Australia. Again, hypothetically, the Japanese might have been able to transport troops from China to hold Pacific Islands. A bad loss would have had a disastrous impact on American morale. I don’t know that I would include Midway among my Final Five (right now, I intend to include the Spanish Armada, Trafalgar, and Aegates Islands among those battles), but I think it was the most important battle of the Pacific. What Exit? I apologize; I misunderstood you. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/43 "2011-02-28T17:30:09Z")
No problem, it is easy to not get intent in the message board format. To me Midway did turn the Pacific War. It was the key battle of the entire campaign. As WWII is of course the most important war in history (or at least the one I know the most about) I tend to favor Midway as a finalist for this thread. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/44 "2011-02-28T17:34:51Z")
My votes for elimination: Flamborough Head – 2. JP Jones was as cool as the Ninth Circle of Hell, but this just was’t a decisive battle. The Americans and our Allies would still have defeated the British if he had gone to Davy Jones’ locker. Sinking of the INS Eliat – 2. An important event, but it didn’t even cause a real war. Repulse and Prince of Wales - 1. For the reasons given above. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/45 "2011-02-28T17:43:07Z")
Please fix the kamikaze spelling the next time you update the list 🙂 Noryang - 2 As with most battles of the Imjin War, I’m very skeptical of the claims made regarding force sizes and casualties. However, they’re not really relevant in the case of this battle. The list describes the battle as “Japanese invasions of Korea repelled,” but it would be hard to have a more inaccurate description. This battle no more affected the course of the Japanese invasions of Korea than the Battle of New Orleans affected the outcome of the War of 1812. The Battle of Noryang was the final battle of the war… it took place after the death of Hideyoshi (the one who had wanted to invade Korea in the first place) and while the Japanese withdrawal from the Korean peninsula was in full swing. The war wasn’t just decided at the time it happened; the war was essentially already over. This was just a chance for the Koreans to do a bit more damage to the Japanese as they retreated. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/46 "2011-02-28T18:37:27Z")
One vote for each Actium Lepanto Gravelins Operation Dynamo (Dunkirk evac.) (would’ve voted for Divine Wind, were it available) Instead, Tsushima, just for the one-sided, unexpected ass-kicking of it. \*\*EDIT: \*\* Oh Crap! Are we voting on who to kick out, or who to stay? To kick out: Baltimore Cartagena de Indias Lake Erie New Orleans Taranto ---
**Author:** ![merrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@merrick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merrick)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/47 "2011-02-28T20:25:38Z")
My votes seemed to get lost last time around (not that they would have made a difference), so I’ll try to be clearer: 1 vote each to eliminate: Baltimore (ship-vs-fort) Cartagena de Indias (ditto) Operation Dynamo (if it was a naval battle, so was the Battle of Britain) & 2 votes to eliminate: CSS Hunley vs USS Housatonic (a historical curiosity, it had no effect on the US blockade, made no difference to the wider Civil War and most importantly had no effect on naval architecture for another 40 years. Hampton Roads may have been a fizzle of a battle, but anyone who saw it knew that armour was the way of the future. Submarines simply weren’t viable with nineteenth century technology and by the time they were the Hunley had been forgotten.) ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/48 "2011-02-28T21:58:48Z")
Sticking with: Operation Dynamo – 2 Adding: H.L. Hunley sinking the Housatonic – 2 The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 – 1 ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/49 "2011-03-01T00:56:25Z")
Black May -2 Phillipine Sea -2 Coral Sea -1 Black May and Phillipine Sea explained above. Coral Sea was tougher, but it wasn’t at all a decisive battle, it was a ground-breaking one. To me, there’s a difference and I’ll be picking the ‘first whatevers’ off as time goes by. Interestingly, I don’t categorize the Hampton Rds action that way. It’s importance was not that it was the first ironclad battle. It’s importance was that it was the South’s last real attempt at breaking the Anaconda Plan. Thus, IMHO, it _was_ decisive, as the South failed to break the blockade and their ‘Navy’ was useless from that moment on. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/50 "2011-03-01T01:06:34Z")
Hunley vs. Housatonic - 2 INS Eilat - 2 Philippine Sea - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/51 "2011-03-01T05:09:54Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > … > > \*\*EDIT: \*\* Oh Crap! Are we voting on who to kick out, or who to stay? > > … To kick out; that is to say, which battles you thought were the _least_ decisive. Operation Dynamo - The evacuation of British troops from Dunkirk, for the reasons stated earlier- 2 Jutland, ditto - 2 Flamborough Head, ditto, and much as I love John Paul Jones - 1 ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/52 "2011-03-01T05:17:51Z")
So many battles, I feel a need to spread my votes around a little: 1 vote for Hampton Roads 1 vote for the sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 I think the Six Day War was already over by October 1967 when the _Eilat_ was sunk, making it pretty difficult to make the case that the sinking had an impact on the course of the various Arab-Israeli conflicts. It definitely did have an impact on how navies conduct themselves, but its impact was mainly on how navies do what they do, not on what nations asked their navies to do or why. 1 vote for Baltimore - AKA the attack on Fort McHenry Yeah, Fort McHenry did stop the British from getting to Baltimore Harbor, but didn’t the British burn a slightly more important town somewhere south of there during that war? 1 vote for H.L. Hunley sinking the Housatonic - The first submarine to sink an enemy vessel. A fantastic example of bravery and innovation, but I don’t think the blockade was broken, and rate of survival pretty much ensured such attacks would not be undertaken _en masse_ until the technology had improved a lot. 1 vote for Flamborough Head – I have not yet begun to fight! Great for morale, but the number of ships lost was insignificant next to the size of the Royal Navy, and I don’t think it created a larger strategic effect besides the great sea story. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/53 "2011-03-01T05:43:01Z")
I’ll stick with the **Battle of the Coral Sea** for **2 votes.** And add my votes to: **Baltimore** a sideshow in a minor war **2 votes** and **Operation Dynamo** a great acheivement but not a naval battle **1 vote**. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/54 "2011-03-02T14:09:54Z")
**Baltimore - 2** (Even though I was born there. My birth is an important historical event, and it _was_ a battle…I came out, triumphant, with a cracked rib, and my twin emerged 7 minutes later, glaring at me. But it wasn’t _naval_.) **Hunley vs Housatonic - 2** (Even though I am distantly related to George Dixon, doomed commander of the _Hunley_ during the battle. True story! But I accept the logic that decades later, submarines were still regarded as unproven.) I am irrationally prejudiced against the sinking of the _Eilat_. It feels more like a mugging than a battle. But moreso than the \*Hunley \*vs _Housatonic_, it did more or less immediately affect naval tactics and design strategy, so I will refrain from voting against it for now. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/55 "2011-03-02T14:29:11Z")
I’ll use up my remaining 3 votes: Hunley vs Housatonic - 2 Flamborough Head - 1 ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/56 "2011-03-02T22:10:32Z")
Wife sick…delayed 1 day unless someone else wants to tally this round. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/57 "2011-03-03T18:06:01Z")
Second Round round: Sorry for the delay - wife is cranky but fine. I added my votes to the below…didn’t change anything. H.L. Hunley sinking the Housatonic - 13 Baltimore - 9 These 2 are eliminated. Others got: Operation Dynamo - 6 Flamborough Head - 6 The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 - 5 Coral Sea - 3 The Battle of the Philippine Sea - 3 Cartagena de Indias - 2 Jutland - 2 Hampton Roads - 1 Black May - 2 Noryang - 2 New Orleans - 1 Lake Erie - 1 Taranto - 1 Remaining: Actium - Octavian defeats Mark Antony; takes Roman Empire. Battle of the Aegates Islands – Rome ends 23-year First Punic War, assumes lasting naval dominance Aegospotami - Lysander’s destruction of the Athenian navy finished the Athenian Empire. Bismarck Sea: The Cannae of airpower vs naval power Black May-when the Western Allies got the upper hand against the u-boats for good. Cape Bon ( 468 ) - Vandals destroy combined Roman fleet, nail in the coffin for the Western Empire. Cartagena de Indias – British beaten by Spain in Colombia Chesapeake: French defeat British; Cornwallis doomed Coral Sea – Introduction of aircraft carriers facing each other Denmark Strait - The Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen of Germany meet the Prince of Wales and the Hood of Britain. Diu: Portuguese smash the Ottoman/Mamluk/Indian fleet The Downs - Larger Spanish fleet crushed, rise of Dutch dominance. Operation Dynamo – Evacuation of Dunkirk allowed the Allies to live to fight another day Falkland Islands in World War 1 seems pretty decisive. Flamborough Head – I have not yet begun to fight! Glorious First of June: Decisive British win over French Gravelins: Spanish Armada turned back by England to meet their famous fate. Hampton Roads: USS Monitor vs. CSS Virginia - first ironclad duel Hansan - Brilliant maneuvering leads to key victory in Imjin War. Jutland During WWI- Germany effectively neutralized. The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 - the first battle in which a vessel was sunk using ship-to-ship guided missiles. Lake Erie: Perry defeats British fleet; “We have met the enemy…” Lepanto: Ottoman high water (heh) mark Leyte Gulf: Swan song for Imperial Japan Manila Bay – Led to Dewey being given the unique (at least for USA) honor of Admiral of the Navy Marmara (677) - Greek Fire stopped the Arabs outside Constantinople - and the Byzantines would roadblock Islam for another 700 years. The Masts - Arabs/Islam take to the sea and kick Byzantium butt. Midway: U.S ambushes Japanese fleet Myeongnyang - Shattered remnants of Korean fleet holds off and smashes a massively larger Japanese invasion fleet. New Orleans: Farragut captures biggest Confederate city Pearl Harbor - Japan is allowed to run amok and capture large amounts of territory The Nile: strategically more important Napoleonic battle than Trafalgar Noryang – Japanese invasions of Korea repelled The Battle of the Philippine Sea - aka The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot - The USN destroyed the remnants of the IJN carrier force. Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse - The blow from which the British Empire never recovered Quiberon Bay - the cherry on the Year of Victory, it secured control over the Atlantic for Britain and doomed French Canada. Salamis: Greeks turned back Persian fleet Sluys - Massive French invasion fleet annihilated, preempting a descent on England. Second Battle of Syracuse/Sicilian Expedition – Athenian expedition cut off/wiped out. Taranto: ascendancy of the airplane over the “fleet in being” (even more notable considering the small, weak, obsolescent air units involved) Trafalgar: Brits won against France/Spain in Nap.war Tsushima - Japan annihilates the Russian fleet The Yalu - Japan’s victory was the start of Japanese imperial expansion, and a death blow to the Qing Empire. Yamen – Mongol-controlled Yuan Dynasty crushed Song Dynasty in China Eliminated: Sinking of the Lusitania – One sided, but helped doom the Germans in the big picture. Kamikazi “divine winds” origin – Mongol invasion of Japan fails due to typhoon H.L. Hunley sinking the Housatonic - The first submarine to sink an enemy vessel. Baltimore - AKA the attack on Fort McHenry Round 2 due by say 2:00 Central Sunday. (2 days from now). The SD works weekends! ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/58 "2011-03-03T20:28:51Z")
Hope your wife is well, **BlinkingDuck**. My wife has been sick since Saturday. ☹ Votes: 1 for Hampton Roads 2 for Flamborough Head 2 for the Sinking of the _Eilat_ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/59 "2011-03-03T21:41:25Z")
Flammborough Head -2 INS Eilat - 2 Repulse and Prince of Whales -1 All for reasons given above ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/60 "2011-03-03T21:55:06Z")
Time to try to again: Black May -2 Phillipine Sea -2 Coral Sea -1 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459.md?page=4)