# Most Decisive Naval Battle (Game Thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 24, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459 "2011-02-24T16:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/61 "2011-03-03T22:20:25Z")
Flamborough Head - 2 Sinking of the \*Eliat \*- 2 Sinking of the _Repulse_/_PoW_ - 1 ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/62 "2011-03-03T22:59:14Z")
Sticking with Coral Sea - 2 votes Operation Dynamo - 2 votes Adding: Flamborough Head - 1 vote ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/63 "2011-03-04T00:03:44Z")
Philippine Sea - 2 INS Eilat - 2 Flamborough Head - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/64 "2011-03-04T00:07:47Z")
Sinking of the Eliat - 2 Flamborough Head 2 Denmark Strait - The Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen of Germany meet the Prince of Wales and the Hood of Britain. 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/65 "2011-03-04T02:55:42Z")
Returning to: Operation Dynamo – 2 The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 – 2 Entering the waters: Flamborough Head – 1 ---
**Author:** ![merrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@merrick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merrick)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/66 "2011-03-04T21:08:34Z")
I’ll keep trying to knock out the not-a-naval-battle entries: Operation Dynamo: 2 Cartagena de Indias: 2 Last one is a toughie. I don’t think any of the Pacific War battles deserve to go this early; and while Flamborough Head was insignificant in the contest of the wider war it (and Lake Erie) set the tone for the US Navy, which has had just a little influence on matters naval. So Jones and Perry get a pass for a couple of rounds. Denmark Straight and Force Z were huge psychologically, even if they added up to not much in substance. I’ll go with the Eilat, simply because of its small scale and lack of a wider context - there was no war to influence and 40+ years on the influence of SSMs is still open to question. Sinking of the Eilat: 1 ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/67 "2011-03-07T00:51:17Z")
4th Round round: I added my votes to the below…didn’t change anything. Flamborough Head - 13 The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 - 13 These 2 are eliminated. Others got: Operation Dynamo - 6 The Battle of the Philippine Sea - 4 Coral Sea - 3 Cartagena de Indias - 2 Hampton Roads - 2 Black May - 2 Sinking of the Repulse/Prince of Wales - 2 Denmark Strait - 1 Taranto - 1 Remaining: Actium - Octavian defeats Mark Antony; takes Roman Empire. Battle of the Aegates Islands – Rome ends 23-year First Punic War, assumes lasting naval dominance Aegospotami - Lysander’s destruction of the Athenian navy finished the Athenian Empire. Bismarck Sea: The Cannae of airpower vs naval power Black May-when the Western Allies got the upper hand against the u-boats for good. Cape Bon ( 468 ) - Vandals destroy combined Roman fleet, nail in the coffin for the Western Empire. Cartagena de Indias – British beaten by Spain in Colombia Chesapeake: French defeat British; Cornwallis doomed Coral Sea – Introduction of aircraft carriers facing each other Denmark Strait - The Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen of Germany meet the Prince of Wales and the Hood of Britain. Diu: Portuguese smash the Ottoman/Mamluk/Indian fleet The Downs - Larger Spanish fleet crushed, rise of Dutch dominance. Operation Dynamo – Evacuation of Dunkirk allowed the Allies to live to fight another day Falkland Islands in World War 1 seems pretty decisive. Glorious First of June: Decisive British win over French Gravelins: Spanish Armada turned back by England to meet their famous fate. Hampton Roads: USS Monitor vs. CSS Virginia - first ironclad duel Hansan - Brilliant maneuvering leads to key victory in Imjin War. Jutland During WWI- Germany effectively neutralized. Lake Erie: Perry defeats British fleet; “We have met the enemy…” Lepanto: Ottoman high water (heh) mark Leyte Gulf: Swan song for Imperial Japan Manila Bay – Led to Dewey being given the unique (at least for USA) honor of Admiral of the Navy Marmara (677) - Greek Fire stopped the Arabs outside Constantinople - and the Byzantines would roadblock Islam for another 700 years. The Masts - Arabs/Islam take to the sea and kick Byzantium butt. Midway: U.S ambushes Japanese fleet Myeongnyang - Shattered remnants of Korean fleet holds off and smashes a massively larger Japanese invasion fleet. New Orleans: Farragut captures biggest Confederate city Pearl Harbor - Japan is allowed to run amok and capture large amounts of territory The Nile: strategically more important Napoleonic battle than Trafalgar Noryang – Japanese invasions of Korea repelled The Battle of the Philippine Sea - aka The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot - The USN destroyed the remnants of the IJN carrier force. Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse - The blow from which the British Empire never recovered Quiberon Bay - the cherry on the Year of Victory, it secured control over the Atlantic for Britain and doomed French Canada. Salamis: Greeks turned back Persian fleet Sluys - Massive French invasion fleet annihilated, preempting a descent on England. Second Battle of Syracuse/Sicilian Expedition – Athenian expedition cut off/wiped out. Taranto: ascendancy of the airplane over the “fleet in being” (even more notable considering the small, weak, obsolescent air units involved) Trafalgar: Brits won against France/Spain in Nap.war Tsushima - Japan annihilates the Russian fleet The Yalu - Japan’s victory was the start of Japanese imperial expansion, and a death blow to the Qing Empire. Yamen – Mongol-controlled Yuan Dynasty crushed Song Dynasty in China Eliminated: Sinking of the Lusitania – One sided, but helped doom the Germans in the big picture. Kamikazi “divine winds” origin – Mongol invasion of Japan fails due to typhoon H.L. Hunley sinking the Housatonic - The first submarine to sink an enemy vessel. Baltimore - AKA the attack on Fort McHenry Flamborough Head – I have not yet begun to fight! The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 - the first battle vessel sunk using ship-to-ship missiles. Round 5 due by say 2:00 Central Tuesday. (2 days from now). ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/68 "2011-03-07T03:15:59Z")
Denmark Strait 2 Hampton Roads 2 Prince of Wales/ Repulse 1 ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/69 "2011-03-07T14:06:58Z")
Hampton Roads - 2 PoW/Repulse - 2 Bismarck Sea - 1 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/70 "2011-03-07T16:38:09Z")
Sinking of Repulse and Prince of Wales – 2 for reasons I’ve already given Denmark Strait – 2. I just can’t see this as being decisive in any way. (Although it did inspire a good Johnny Horton song.) Bismarck Sea – 1. We’re going to have to get rid of some of the Pacific battles and I don’t see this one being as important as the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot and Midway. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/71 "2011-03-07T17:19:52Z")
Continuing with: Operation Dynamo – 2 New targets: Denmark Strait – 2 Bismarck Sea – 1 ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/72 "2011-03-07T17:24:18Z")
I am going to go with Hampton Roads - 2 Denmark Strait - 2 Agree with some WWII Pacific has to go so switching from Taranto to Bismarck Sea - 1 ---
**Author:** ![merrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@merrick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merrick)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/73 "2011-03-07T21:09:16Z")
I am going to go on voting for Operation Dynamo & Cartagena de Indias until they go, dammit. Seriously, how was Cartagena de Indias a naval battle? The only Spanish ships present were scuttled (unsucessfully) as blockships; the decisive action was a failed infantry assault on one of the forts, or more accurately the forts delaying the land forces long enough for the yellow fever to do its work. Last vote seems to be choice between Hampton Roads (no - it had a major impact on naval development and few victories have been more decisive than the _Virginia_ vs the _Cumberland_), Bismarck Sea (small-scale but very decisive and showcased the dominance of airpower over surface ships), Force Z (again very decisive on the small scale and while irrelevant strategically - the PoW and the Repulse were seriously outmatched by the Japanese _surface_ forces opposing them and Force Z’s dispatch was only ever a token gesture - it was a heavy blow psychologically) and Denmark Strait. I’ll go with Denmark Strait - spectacular but not even a decisive victory on the small scale, given the the _Bismarck_ took damage that ultimately doomed her. On the larger scale - so what? If the _Hood_ had survived her subsequent military service would likely have been limited to distant convoy escort or shore bombardment; if the _Bismarck_ had escaped she would most likely have shared the fate of _Gneisenau_ & _Scharnhorst_ . To sum up: Operation Dynamo : 2 Cartagena de Indias : 2 Denmark Straight : 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/74 "2011-03-08T05:33:42Z")
D’oh! Missed the weekend vote. Operation Dynamo: 2 Sinking of _Prince of Wales_ and _Repulse_: 2 Denmark Strait: 1 ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/75 "2011-03-08T06:54:27Z")
Operation Dynamo : 2 Noryang : 2 Cartagena de Indias : 1 Any chance we could eliminate more than 2 at a time until we get down to a top 25 or so? The list is rather long at the moment and it will likely be weeks before hard choices (requiring discussion/arguments) need to be made. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/76 "2011-03-08T14:50:00Z")
Setting targets on: Hampton Roads: 2 Cartagena de Indias: 1 Bismark Sea: 2 Decisive in the sense that the entire Japanese force of 16 ships was sunk, but in the grander scheme of the Pacific War, not one of the most decisive (in the sense of influential) battles. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/77 "2011-03-08T16:34:25Z")
Grrrr… That should be “Bismar **c** k Sea” ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/78 "2011-03-08T19:43:23Z")
5th Round round: Denmark Strait - 10 Hampton Roads - 8 Operation Dynamo - 8 These 3 are eliminated. Others got: Sinking of the Repulse/Prince of Wales - 7 Bismarck Sea - 6 Cartagena de Indias - 4 Noryang - 1 Remaining: Actium - Octavian defeats Mark Antony; takes Roman Empire. Battle of the Aegates Islands – Rome ends 23-year First Punic War, assumes lasting naval dominance Aegospotami - Lysander’s destruction of the Athenian navy finished the Athenian Empire. Bismarck Sea: The Cannae of airpower vs naval power Black May-when the Western Allies got the upper hand against the u-boats for good. Cape Bon ( 468 ) - Vandals destroy combined Roman fleet, nail in the coffin for the Western Empire. Cartagena de Indias – British beaten by Spain in Colombia Chesapeake: French defeat British; Cornwallis doomed Coral Sea – Introduction of aircraft carriers facing each other Diu: Portuguese smash the Ottoman/Mamluk/Indian fleet The Downs - Larger Spanish fleet crushed, rise of Dutch dominance. Falkland Islands in World War 1 seems pretty decisive. Glorious First of June: Decisive British win over French Gravelins: Spanish Armada turned back by England to meet their famous fate. Hansan - Brilliant maneuvering leads to key victory in Imjin War. Jutland During WWI- Germany effectively neutralized. Lake Erie: Perry defeats British fleet; “We have met the enemy…” Lepanto: Ottoman high water (heh) mark Leyte Gulf: Swan song for Imperial Japan Manila Bay – Led to Dewey being given the unique (at least for USA) honor of Admiral of the Navy Marmara (677) - Greek Fire stopped the Arabs outside Constantinople - and the Byzantines would roadblock Islam for another 700 years. The Masts - Arabs/Islam take to the sea and kick Byzantium butt. Midway: U.S ambushes Japanese fleet Myeongnyang - Shattered remnants of Korean fleet holds off and smashes a massively larger Japanese invasion fleet. New Orleans: Farragut captures biggest Confederate city Pearl Harbor - Japan is allowed to run amok and capture large amounts of territory The Nile: strategically more important Napoleonic battle than Trafalgar Noryang – Japanese invasions of Korea repelled The Battle of the Philippine Sea - aka The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot - The USN destroyed the remnants of the IJN carrier force. Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse - The blow from which the British Empire never recovered Quiberon Bay - the cherry on the Year of Victory, it secured control over the Atlantic for Britain and doomed French Canada. Salamis: Greeks turned back Persian fleet Sluys - Massive French invasion fleet annihilated, preempting a descent on England. Second Battle of Syracuse/Sicilian Expedition – Athenian expedition cut off/wiped out. Taranto: ascendancy of the airplane over the “fleet in being” (even more notable considering the small, weak, obsolescent air units involved) Trafalgar: Brits won against France/Spain in Nap.war Tsushima - Japan annihilates the Russian fleet The Yalu - Japan’s victory was the start of Japanese imperial expansion, and a death blow to the Qing Empire. Yamen – Mongol-controlled Yuan Dynasty crushed Song Dynasty in China Eliminated: Sinking of the Lusitania – One sided, but helped doom the Germans in the big picture. Kamikazi “divine winds” origin – Mongol invasion of Japan fails due to typhoon H.L. Hunley sinking the Housatonic - The first submarine to sink an enemy vessel. Baltimore - AKA the attack on Fort McHenry Flamborough Head – I have not yet begun to fight! The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 - the first battle vessel sunk using ship-to-ship missiles. Denmark Strait - The Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen of Germany meet the Prince of Wales and the Hood of Britain. Hampton Roads: USS Monitor vs. CSS Virginia - first ironclad duel Operation Dynamo – Evacuation of Dunkirk allowed the Allies to live to fight another day Round 6 due by say 2:00 Central Thurs. (2 days from now). ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/79 "2011-03-09T04:09:33Z")
Continuing with: Bismarck Sea – 2 Hoping to send to watery graves: Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse – 2 Hansan – 1 ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/80 "2011-03-09T06:27:26Z")
> [@Sternvogel](#): > > Hansan – 1 How come? Of the three Imjin War battles on the list, Noryang would seem to be the crying out to be removed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459.md?page=5)