# Most Decisive Naval Battle (Game Thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 24, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459 "2011-02-24T16:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/161 "2011-04-04T14:18:59Z")
Syracuse - 2 (I thought it was too early before; can’t really justify keeping it at this point) Black May - 2 (Too diffuse) Chesapeake - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/162 "2011-04-04T14:20:31Z")
Syracuse - 2 Hansan - 2 Chesapeake - 1 Ought to eliminate these three, then we get into the heavyweights. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/163 "2011-04-04T17:25:08Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Syracuse - 2 (I thought it was too early before; can’t really justify keeping it at this point) > Black May - 2 (Too diffuse) > Chesapeake - 1 Agreed on Syracuse Syracuse - 2 Chesapeake - 2 Black May - 1 I think Black May was pretty decisive but now is the time. After the above 3 (except for maybe Hansan) we are into some real heavyweights. ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/164 "2011-04-04T18:24:53Z")
I agree, and in my opinion Black May IS a heavyweight. But not as heavy as some of the others… ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/165 "2011-04-05T05:47:08Z")
**Chesapeake** = 2 votes **Syracuse** = 2 votes Jeez, I don’t know if I can vote for Hansan or Myeongyang yet - gotta give props to those Koreans, when they smashed an enemy fleet, they smashed like 90% of that fleet’s ships. Not just the 15% of the ships that were most critical, but just about every ship. But then again, Korea is a relatively small peninsula… since Hansan seems to be the frontrunner for elimination… **Hansan** = 1 vote It’s going to be really hard to make choices from here on. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/166 "2011-04-05T14:52:56Z")
Finally getting support for my long-time choice, I add to the tally for: Hansan – 2 Agreeing with: Black May – 2 (more a period of significant activity than a battle _per se_) Chesapeake – 1 ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/167 "2011-04-05T21:22:01Z")
Syracuse - 2 votes Black May - 2 votes Chesapeake - 1 vote ---
**Author:** ![merrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@merrick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merrick)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/168 "2011-04-05T22:23:54Z")
Under 20 left and we’re getting into the serious contenders. Trying to clear uo the last of the not-so-serious ones, I have Chesapeake and Second Syracuse left from the last round and (IMHO) the last vote is between Hansan (tactically decisive, innovative but didn’t decide the war), Sluys (huge, tactically decisive but not innovative and didn’t decide the war) and Lepanto (huge, tactically decisive, innovative if misleadingly so but changed the strategic balance very little). I’m tempted to vote Hansan in the interests of keeping Black May afloat (IMHO, it’s a top-10 candidate), but I’ll have the courage of my analysis and go with Sluys. Chesapeake - 2 Second Syracuse - 2 Sluys - 1 ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/169 "2011-04-07T22:13:19Z")
14th Round round: Syracuse - 10 Chesapeake - 9 These 2 are eliminated. Others got: Hansan - 5 Black May - 5 Sluys - 1 Remaining: Actium - Octavian defeats Mark Antony; takes Roman Empire. Battle of the Aegates Islands – Rome ends 23-year First Punic War, assumes lasting naval dominance Aegospotami - Lysander’s destruction of the Athenian navy finished the Athenian Empire. Black May-when the Western Allies got the upper hand against the u-boats for good. Diu: Portuguese smash the Ottoman/Mamluk/Indian fleet The Downs - Larger Spanish fleet crushed, rise of Dutch dominance. Gravelins: Spanish Armada turned back by England to meet their famous fate. Hansan - Brilliant maneuvering leads to key victory in Imjin War. Lepanto: Ottoman high water (heh) mark Marmara (677) - Greek Fire stopped the Arabs outside Constantinople - and the Byzantines would roadblock Islam for another 700 years. Midway: U.S ambushes Japanese fleet Myeongnyang - Shattered remnants of Korean fleet holds off and smashes a massively larger Japanese invasion fleet. The Nile: strategically more important Napoleonic battle than Trafalgar Salamis: Greeks turned back Persian fleet Sluys - Massive French invasion fleet annihilated, preempting a descent on England. Trafalgar: Brits won against France/Spain in Nap.war Tsushima - Japan annihilates the Russian fleet Eliminated: Sinking of the Lusitania – One sided, but helped doom the Germans in the big picture. Kamikazi “divine winds” origin – Mongol invasion of Japan fails due to typhoon H.L. Hunley sinking the Housatonic - The first submarine to sink an enemy vessel. Baltimore - AKA the attack on Fort McHenry Flamborough Head – I have not yet begun to fight! The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 - the first battle vessel sunk using ship-to-ship missiles. Denmark Strait - The Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen of Germany meet the Prince of Wales and the Hood of Britain. Hampton Roads: USS Monitor vs. CSS Virginia - first ironclad duel Operation Dynamo – Evacuation of Dunkirk allowed the Allies to live to fight another day Bismarck Sea: The Cannae of airpower vs naval power Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse - The blow from which the British Empire never recovered Cartagena de Indias – British beaten by Spain in Colombia New Orleans: Farragut captures biggest Confederate city Falkland Islands in World War 1 seems pretty decisive. Lake Erie: Perry defeats British fleet; “We have met the enemy…” Cape Bon ( 468 ) - Vandals destroy combined Roman fleet, nail in the coffin for the Western Empire. Noryang – Japanese invasions of Korea repelled Coral Sea – Introduction of aircraft carriers facing each other The Battle of the Philippine Sea - aka The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot - The USN destroyed the remnants of the IJN carrier force. Taranto: ascendancy of the airplane over the “fleet in being” (even more notable considering the small, weak, obsolescent air units involved) Manila Bay – Led to Dewey being given the unique (at least for USA) honor of Admiral of the Navy Jutland During WWI- Germany effectively neutralized. Leyte Gulf: Swan song for Imperial Japan The Yalu - Japan’s victory was the start of Japanese imperial expansion, and a death blow to the Qing Empire. Yamen – Mongol-controlled Yuan Dynasty crushed Song Dynasty in China Glorious First of June: Decisive British win over French Pearl Harbor - Japan is allowed to run amok and capture large amounts of territory Quiberon Bay - the cherry on the Year of Victory, it secured control over the Atlantic for Britain and doomed French Canada. The Masts - Arabs/Islam take to the sea and kick Byzantium butt. Second Battle of Syracuse/Sicilian Expedition – Athenian expedition cut off/wiped out. Chesapeake: French defeat British; Cornwallis doomed Round 15 due by say 2:00 Central Sunday. (3 days from now). ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/170 "2011-04-08T00:14:34Z")
Hansan - 2 The Downs - 2 Tsushima - 1 Now we’re getting into tougher votes. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/171 "2011-04-08T00:25:41Z")
Hansan - 2 Black May - 2 Lepanto - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/172 "2011-04-08T21:23:26Z")
Sticking with: Hansan – 2 Black May – 2 Adding: Sluys – 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/173 "2011-04-11T16:20:09Z")
> [@Sternvogel](#): > > Sticking with: > > Hansan – 2 > Black May – 2 > > Adding: > > Sluys – 1 Sounds good to me. Ditto on all counts. ---
**Author:** ![merrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@merrick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merrick)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/174 "2011-04-11T22:05:39Z")
Since we’re down under 20 to go, I’ll thought I’d give my take on all the remaining contestants. There are two main groups - battles that had huge strategic/political consequences, and one that were “merely” huge and decisive in themselves. Most of the big ones, of course (e.g. Salamis, Aegospotami, Trafalgar, Tsushima, Midway) were to some degree both - I’ve gone with the list where they rank higher. Battles that Changed the World: A-list: **Salamis** - Themistocles bets the future of western civilisation on a battle against odds - and scoops the pool. **Marmara** - If the Arabs take Constantinople, where exactly do they stop? **Diu** - Gave control of the Indian Ocean to the Europeans, with all that entailed. **Tsushima** - Toss-up whether to put it on the other list, chose this one because the Russian were such a shower. The long-term effects - on Russia, on Japan, on China, on European colonialism - were massive. B-list: **Aegospotami** - Loses half a rank because the Athenians were already in trouble, but if the Athenian Empire had lasted… **Actium** - Loses a rank for being a non-event in itself, but it was still Octavian vs Anthony for the rule of the civilised (as they saw it) world. **Gravelins** - Loses half a rank for being a tactically indecisive muddle, but if the Armada had come off - or if the Spanish had simply been able to cut off English support for the Dutch rebels, well, write your own script for that one. **Black May** - No “decisive battle” in the classic sense, but if the U-boats had won, the remaining question would be whether Europe was ruled by Hitler or Stalin. C-list: **Lepanto** - “At Lepanto the Christians shaved me, at Cyprus I cut off their arm. My beard will grow back”. Great Naval Battles A-list: **Myeongnyang** - Maybe not so significant on a global scale, but has any admiral pulled off a greater victory against odds than Yi Sunsin? **Trafalgar** - The naval victory of naval victories and ushered in the Pax Britannica. **Midway** - One of the great sea stories, and arguably did more than anything to determine the fate of China. B-list: \*\*Aegates Islands \*\*- The Philippine Sea of the Punic Wars; Rome always had the resources to win, this was where she made them count. **Hansan** - Decisive, innovative, small scale. Loses a half a rank because Myeongnyang is also on the list. **The Downs** - Not quite a knock-out, tactically or strategically, but a big victory none the less. **The Nile** - The battle of annihilation comes to Napoleonic naval warfare. Loses half a rank only because Trafalgar is also on the list. C-list: \*\*Sluys \*\* - For a massive naval victory, it adds up to curiously little. Having the courage of my analysis: **Sluys** - 2 **Lepanto** - 2 **Hansan** - 1 ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/175 "2011-04-12T02:01:25Z")
I was going to try to figure out some sort of numerical rating system for different aspects that might make a battle decisive, but I just don’t have the time and energy: **Sluys** - 2 votes **The Downs** - 2 votes, Pretty decisive, but not as decisive to the course of world history as many of the others on the list. **Hansan** - 1 vote, decisive, but it is odd to have so many of the Korean-Japanese battles at this stage on the list. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/176 "2011-04-12T15:00:26Z")
15th Round round: Hansan - 8 Sluys - 6 These 2 are eliminated. Others got: The Downs- 4 Black May - 4 Lepanto - 2 Tsushima - 1 Remaining: Actium - Octavian defeats Mark Antony; takes Roman Empire. Battle of the Aegates Islands – Rome ends 23-year First Punic War, assumes lasting naval dominance Aegospotami - Lysander’s destruction of the Athenian navy finished the Athenian Empire. Black May-when the Western Allies got the upper hand against the u-boats for good. Diu: Portuguese smash the Ottoman/Mamluk/Indian fleet The Downs - Larger Spanish fleet crushed, rise of Dutch dominance. Gravelins: Spanish Armada turned back by England to meet their famous fate. Lepanto: Ottoman high water (heh) mark Marmara (677) - Greek Fire stopped the Arabs outside Constantinople - and the Byzantines would roadblock Islam for another 700 years. Midway: U.S ambushes Japanese fleet Myeongnyang - Shattered remnants of Korean fleet holds off and smashes a massively larger Japanese invasion fleet. The Nile: strategically more important Napoleonic battle than Trafalgar Salamis: Greeks turned back Persian fleet Trafalgar: Brits won against France/Spain in Nap.war Tsushima - Japan annihilates the Russian fleet Eliminated: Sinking of the Lusitania – One sided, but helped doom the Germans in the big picture. Kamikazi “divine winds” origin – Mongol invasion of Japan fails due to typhoon H.L. Hunley sinking the Housatonic - The first submarine to sink an enemy vessel. Baltimore - AKA the attack on Fort McHenry Flamborough Head – I have not yet begun to fight! The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 - the first battle vessel sunk using ship-to-ship missiles. Denmark Strait - The Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen of Germany meet the Prince of Wales and the Hood of Britain. Hampton Roads: USS Monitor vs. CSS Virginia - first ironclad duel Operation Dynamo – Evacuation of Dunkirk allowed the Allies to live to fight another day Bismarck Sea: The Cannae of airpower vs naval power Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse - The blow from which the British Empire never recovered Cartagena de Indias – British beaten by Spain in Colombia New Orleans: Farragut captures biggest Confederate city Falkland Islands in World War 1 seems pretty decisive. Lake Erie: Perry defeats British fleet; “We have met the enemy…” Cape Bon ( 468 ) - Vandals destroy combined Roman fleet, nail in the coffin for the Western Empire. Noryang – Japanese invasions of Korea repelled Coral Sea – Introduction of aircraft carriers facing each other The Battle of the Philippine Sea - aka The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot - The USN destroyed the remnants of the IJN carrier force. Taranto: ascendancy of the airplane over the “fleet in being” (even more notable considering the small, weak, obsolescent air units involved) Manila Bay – Led to Dewey being given the unique (at least for USA) honor of Admiral of the Navy Jutland During WWI- Germany effectively neutralized. Leyte Gulf: Swan song for Imperial Japan The Yalu - Japan’s victory was the start of Japanese imperial expansion, and a death blow to the Qing Empire. Yamen – Mongol-controlled Yuan Dynasty crushed Song Dynasty in China Glorious First of June: Decisive British win over French Pearl Harbor - Japan is allowed to run amok and capture large amounts of territory Quiberon Bay - the cherry on the Year of Victory, it secured control over the Atlantic for Britain and doomed French Canada. The Masts - Arabs/Islam take to the sea and kick Byzantium butt. Second Battle of Syracuse/Sicilian Expedition – Athenian expedition cut off/wiped out. Chesapeake: French defeat British; Cornwallis doomed Hansan - Brilliant maneuvering leads to key victory in Imjin War. Sluys - Massive French invasion fleet annihilated, preempting a descent on England. Round 16 due by say 2:00 Central Friday. (3 days from now). ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/177 "2011-04-12T15:06:41Z")
Actium - 2 (who cares who rules the Roman Empire…would it really have changed that much? Well…the winner did rule well so maybe some…but not world changing) The Downs - 2 Lepanto - 1 (important, but after reading more maybe not a top contender) I like Black May…I think it was hugely important. Probably not the winner but still cannot vote for it yet. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/178 "2011-04-12T15:06:42Z")
Black May - 2 Aegospotami - 2 Diu - 1 ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/179 "2011-04-12T17:44:36Z")
**The Downs** 2 votes **Actium** 2 votes **Lepanto** 1 vote ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459/180 "2011-04-12T22:13:10Z")
Still holding out for: Black May – 2 Casting my lot with: Lepanto – 2 Actium – 1 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-decisive-naval-battle-game-thread/572459.md?page=10)