I agree that Black May should be more respected than it has been so far. Although I can see the point that it represented the culmination of a campaign rather than a battle, I don’t agree with that point.
Remember that Doenitz and the Ubootwaffe were coming off a battle in March '43 where they savaged convoys HX 229 and SC 122 - with 22 merchant ships being sunk for the loss of one Uboat. April '43 was a breathing space for both the Allies and the Kreigsmarine, with Doenitz refitting his boats during most of the month.
As April turned to May, Doenitz was set to drive the stake through the Allied Convoy system once and for all. If he could have shut down the trans-Atlantic routes, Germany potentially could have had the time and breathing space necessary to recover from the Stalingrad and Tunis double disasters. And IF Stalin had felt that the Western Allies were using the Uboat menace as a shield to let Germany whomp on the USSR without any real pressure, then there’s no telling what he might have done. I don’t think Germany was going to win by May 1 1943 if the Allies held strong with each other (USSR on one side, US-UK on the other), but a Uboat win could have been the wedge Hitler needed to force a falling out on the Allies.
And, to put some numbers on the face of this battle - on May 1, 1943, the Ubootwaffe had 240 boats in commission, it’s highest total during the war, with 118 boats at sea. By the end of the month, 41 Uboats had been sunk - 16% of the total force, and 35% of all deployed boats.
So, I can’t bring myself to vote for Black May just yet, because the numbers say that the Kreigsmarine got its butt decisively whipped in the May '43 battles.
Lepanto is (to me) obvious; the Downs (much as I admire Tromp) is probably the weakest of the remainder, for the last one I’ll go with Actium because Anthony made no real attempt to win it, and because if he wasn’t already losing on land he wouldn’t have tried a naval breakout.
So:
Lepanto - 2
The Downs - 2
Actium - 1
Has anyone been keeping track of the candidates that still haven’t been nominated? IIRC, no-one has put a vote against Aegates Islands (which surprises me), Gravelins, Marmara, Midway (or did it get one in the early discussion?) Myeongnyang, the Nile, Salamis or Trafalgar.
Actium - 2 votes, as others have said an internecine war between Octavian and Antony. Lepanto - 2 votes, the Ottomans remained ascendent till the second siege of Vienna in 1683. Black May - 1 vote importatnt yes, but I still see it as a campaign rather than a battle.
The Downs- 8
Black May - 5
Aegospotami - 2
Diu - 1
Remaining:
Battle of the Aegates Islands – Rome ends 23-year First Punic War, assumes lasting naval dominance
Aegospotami - Lysander’s destruction of the Athenian navy finished the Athenian Empire.
Black May-when the Western Allies got the upper hand against the u-boats for good.
Diu: Portuguese smash the Ottoman/Mamluk/Indian fleet
The Downs - Larger Spanish fleet crushed, rise of Dutch dominance.
Gravelins: Spanish Armada turned back by England to meet their famous fate.
Marmara (677) - Greek Fire stopped the Arabs outside Constantinople - and the Byzantines would roadblock Islam for another 700 years.
Midway: U.S ambushes Japanese fleet
Myeongnyang - Shattered remnants of Korean fleet holds off and smashes a massively larger Japanese invasion fleet.
The Nile: strategically more important Napoleonic battle than Trafalgar
Salamis: Greeks turned back Persian fleet
Trafalgar: Brits won against France/Spain in Nap.war
Tsushima - Japan annihilates the Russian fleet
Eliminated:
Sinking of the Lusitania – One sided, but helped doom the Germans in the big picture.
Kamikazi “divine winds” origin – Mongol invasion of Japan fails due to typhoon
H.L. Hunley sinking the Housatonic - The first submarine to sink an enemy vessel.
Baltimore - AKA the attack on Fort McHenry
Flamborough Head – I have not yet begun to fight!
The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 - the first battle vessel sunk using ship-to-ship missiles.
Denmark Strait - The Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen of Germany meet the Prince of Wales and the Hood of Britain.
Hampton Roads: USS Monitor vs. CSS Virginia - first ironclad duel
Operation Dynamo – Evacuation of Dunkirk allowed the Allies to live to fight another day
Bismarck Sea: The Cannae of airpower vs naval power
Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse - The blow from which the British Empire never recovered
Cartagena de Indias – British beaten by Spain in Colombia
New Orleans: Farragut captures biggest Confederate city
Falkland Islands in World War 1 seems pretty decisive.
Lake Erie: Perry defeats British fleet; “We have met the enemy…”
Cape Bon ( 468 ) - Vandals destroy combined Roman fleet, nail in the coffin for the Western Empire.
Noryang – Japanese invasions of Korea repelled
Coral Sea – Introduction of aircraft carriers facing each other
The Battle of the Philippine Sea - aka The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot - The USN destroyed the remnants of the IJN carrier force.
Taranto: ascendancy of the airplane over the “fleet in being” (even more notable considering the small, weak, obsolescent air units involved)
Manila Bay – Led to Dewey being given the unique (at least for USA) honor of Admiral of the Navy
Jutland During WWI- Germany effectively neutralized.
Leyte Gulf: Swan song for Imperial Japan
The Yalu - Japan’s victory was the start of Japanese imperial expansion, and a death blow to the Qing Empire.
Yamen – Mongol-controlled Yuan Dynasty crushed Song Dynasty in China
Glorious First of June: Decisive British win over French
Pearl Harbor - Japan is allowed to run amok and capture large amounts of territory
Quiberon Bay - the cherry on the Year of Victory, it secured control over the Atlantic for Britain and doomed French Canada.
The Masts - Arabs/Islam take to the sea and kick Byzantium butt.
Second Battle of Syracuse/Sicilian Expedition – Athenian expedition cut off/wiped out.
Chesapeake: French defeat British; Cornwallis doomed
Hansan - Brilliant maneuvering leads to key victory in Imjin War.
Sluys - Massive French invasion fleet annihilated, preempting a descent on England.
Lepanto: Ottoman high water (heh) mark
Actium - Octavian defeats Mark Antony; takes Roman Empire.
Round 17 due by say 2:00 Central Tuesday. (3 days from now).
The Downs is still in, so I’ll stick with that; as for the other two I’ll break new ground and nominate Aegates Islands (did not decide the Punic wars, though it did secure Sicily, and Roman naval dominance was an iffy thing for quite some time after) and (through gritted teeth) Gravelins. Yes the Spanish Armada was a turning point, both for European history and naval architecture, but it was also a badly-planned long-shot that took its worst losses from bad weather (see: Kamikaze), and failure didn’t directly cost Spain its leading position in Europe or even its naval dominance.
So:
The Downs : 2
Aegates Islands : 2
Gravelins: 1
Incidentally, did Actium just go from un-nominated to eliminated in one round?
The Downs - 8
Nile - 4
Tsushima - 4 (ouch - disagree with this! )
These 3 are eliminated.
Others got:
Black May - 3
Gravelins - 3
Aegospotami - 2
Diu - 1
Remaining:
Battle of the Aegates Islands – Rome ends 23-year First Punic War, assumes lasting naval dominance
Aegospotami - Lysander’s destruction of the Athenian navy finished the Athenian Empire.
Black May-when the Western Allies got the upper hand against the u-boats for good.
Diu: Portuguese smash the Ottoman/Mamluk/Indian fleet
Gravelins: Spanish Armada turned back by England to meet their famous fate.
Marmara (677) - Greek Fire stopped the Arabs outside Constantinople - and the Byzantines would roadblock Islam for another 700 years.
Midway: U.S ambushes Japanese fleet
Myeongnyang - Shattered remnants of Korean fleet holds off and smashes a massively larger Japanese invasion fleet.
Salamis: Greeks turned back Persian fleet
Trafalgar: Brits won against France/Spain in Nap.war
Eliminated:
Sinking of the Lusitania – One sided, but helped doom the Germans in the big picture.
Kamikazi “divine winds” origin – Mongol invasion of Japan fails due to typhoon
H.L. Hunley sinking the Housatonic - The first submarine to sink an enemy vessel.
Baltimore - AKA the attack on Fort McHenry
Flamborough Head – I have not yet begun to fight!
The sinking of the INS Eilat, 1967 - the first battle vessel sunk using ship-to-ship missiles.
Denmark Strait - The Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen of Germany meet the Prince of Wales and the Hood of Britain.
Hampton Roads: USS Monitor vs. CSS Virginia - first ironclad duel
Operation Dynamo – Evacuation of Dunkirk allowed the Allies to live to fight another day
Bismarck Sea: The Cannae of airpower vs naval power
Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse - The blow from which the British Empire never recovered
Cartagena de Indias – British beaten by Spain in Colombia
New Orleans: Farragut captures biggest Confederate city
Falkland Islands in World War 1 seems pretty decisive.
Lake Erie: Perry defeats British fleet; “We have met the enemy…”
Cape Bon ( 468 ) - Vandals destroy combined Roman fleet, nail in the coffin for the Western Empire.
Noryang – Japanese invasions of Korea repelled
Coral Sea – Introduction of aircraft carriers facing each other
The Battle of the Philippine Sea - aka The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot - The USN destroyed the remnants of the IJN carrier force.
Taranto: ascendancy of the airplane over the “fleet in being” (even more notable considering the small, weak, obsolescent air units involved)
Manila Bay – Led to Dewey being given the unique (at least for USA) honor of Admiral of the Navy
Jutland During WWI- Germany effectively neutralized.
Leyte Gulf: Swan song for Imperial Japan
The Yalu - Japan’s victory was the start of Japanese imperial expansion, and a death blow to the Qing Empire.
Yamen – Mongol-controlled Yuan Dynasty crushed Song Dynasty in China
Glorious First of June: Decisive British win over French
Pearl Harbor - Japan is allowed to run amok and capture large amounts of territory
Quiberon Bay - the cherry on the Year of Victory, it secured control over the Atlantic for Britain and doomed French Canada.
The Masts - Arabs/Islam take to the sea and kick Byzantium butt.
Second Battle of Syracuse/Sicilian Expedition – Athenian expedition cut off/wiped out.
Chesapeake: French defeat British; Cornwallis doomed
Hansan - Brilliant maneuvering leads to key victory in Imjin War.
Sluys - Massive French invasion fleet annihilated, preempting a descent on England.
Lepanto: Ottoman high water (heh) mark
Actium - Octavian defeats Mark Antony; takes Roman Empire.
The Downs - Larger Spanish fleet crushed, rise of Dutch dominance.
The Nile: strategically more important Napoleonic battle than Trafalgar
Tsushima - Japan annihilates the Russian fleet
Round 18 due by say 2:00 Central Friday. (3 days from now).
I want to put in my plug for the Battle of the Aegates Islands. Before this battle, Carthage had been a great sea power for centuries, and the Romans were newcomers to naval warfare.
The First Punic War was largely a naval war. There was a series of naval battles and raids that see-sawed back and forth – the Romans won some, lost some, and lost some fleets in storms – but the war dragged on for 23 years. Even the Roman victories were sometimes marked by heavy losses, as is to be expected fighting an experienced seapower.
Eventually the Romans rebuilt and re-manned their navy yet again (using donations from wealthy citizens) and fought the battle of the Aegates Islands. This permanently smashed Carthaginian naval power. After destroying the Carthaginian fleet, the Roman navy then isolated a previously successful Carthaginian land force in Sicily and forced it to make peace – a curious role reversal for these two powers.
The Romans would remain the dominant naval power in the Mediterranean world for hundreds of years. They would fight two more wars with Carthage – in the Second Punic War, Rome would be reduced to fighting for its life on land, but still controlled the seas; and in the Third, Carthage would be annihilated as a civilization, without ever regaining control of the seas. It’s hard to get more decisive than that.
Into the top 10, and by my reckoning the only B-listers left are Aegospotami, Aegates Islands, Gravelins and Black May.
I’ve already voted for Gravelins (see above for reasons), and I’m still going to vote for Aegates Islands, despite Sailboat’s analysis. It wasn’t the first Roman naval victory over Carthage, nor the largest, nor was it the decisive victory of the Punic wars. It did win the First Punic War for the Romans, because Carthage no longer had the resources to recover from the defeat (as they had after Cape Ecnormus), but I simply can’t see a Carthaginian victory from that point. If the Roman fleet had failed at Aegates Islands, the most likely result would be another few years of skirmishing, while the Romans rebuilt their fleet and tried again - and, if necessary, again. Like Japan in WW2, Carthage had got itself into an attrition war with an enemy too big to attrit. And while it was the end of Carthaginian seapower in hindsight, it needn’t have been at the time - Carthage fielded naval forces rought equal to Rome’s in the second war, but chose not to risk a decisive battle. The Second Punic War was won by Scipio, Fabius and the manpower of the legions, not by naval dominance, and after the Punic wars the Romans almost abandoned their navy for decades, relying on Greek allies.
For the last, I’m close to tossing a coin between Black May and Aegospotami. Athens was unlikely to win at this point, but so was Germany. The Athenian fleet in the East had been consistently successful up to that point, but so had the U-boats. Aegospotami was a spectacular sucker-punch, Black May was based on brilliant technical innovation. Aegospotami ended the war immediately with the total defeat of Athens, Black May made D-Day possible. Aegospotami gave the Spartans hegemony over Greece, Black May prevented Soviet hegemony over Europe. In the end, I think Black May edges it, simply as a nod to the scientists and engineers who made it possible.
Eh. I’d rate “would rather lose the war than fight Rome at sea again after Aegates Islands” as pretty good indication someone got spanked.
Matter of interpretation – many accounts say that Hannibal had to operate in isolation because he didn’t have naval support. That’s why he had to walk across the alps. Scipio won the war by transferring forces to Africa using naval superiority.
I’m going with Gravelins and Aegospotami so that I won’t have to pronounce them.
No, seriously, although we’re in the big leagues now, Gravelins would have been incomplete without the storms that subsequently worked over the Spanish, and there are apparently two conflicting accounts of Aegospotami…one of which says the Spartans seized the Athenian fleet while it was beached and the sailors were literally out to lunch; the other of which says the Athenians sent 30 ships to lure the Spartans into a trap, and when the 30 were immediately defeated, the rest of the Athenian navy “wasn’t ready for battle.” Either way it’s hard to defend as a good effort by the Athenians.
Just sticking my head in to make a random vote for…
Gravelines - 2
I’ve mostly been spectating this time around, enjoying some of the discussion. But re: Gravelines as a top 10, I have to really agree with the notion that it was a long-shot to ever amount to anything. It may in fact have been a completely unwinnable plan.
Parma’s original idea of a sneak crossing of the Channel suffered from overconfidence in the likliehood that English Catholics would rally in support, let alone that they would be able to pull off the necessary secrecy. But it had at least a chance of a partial success if surprise was achieved. It may not have ended in the conquest of England, but it surely would have wrecked the country for years to come. The odds are that Parma, one of Spanish history’s greatest generals, would have been able to take London at the very least and drive the government north into a semi-exile in the north. If he could capture Elizabeth, state paralysis was likely.
Santa Cruz’s original plan of a massive invasion fleet including an army carried in ocean-going transports and setting out straight from Spain ( which required no rendezvous with Parma ) was probably sounder militarily. But it ignored certain financial realities that made it a bit more impractical to set up.
By contrast Philip II’s compromise plan, which vastly decreased the experienced Santa Cruz’s best guess at a sufficient fleet and required the problematic rendezvous with Parma, was a godawful mess. It had neither the overwhelming force suggested by Santa Cruz, nor the tactical surprise suggested by Parma. Odds are pretty good that the expedition was doomed from the get go. In my mind that puts Gravelines more in character with Lepanto - a victory trumpeted in propaganda terms but adding up to less than it seems in the end.
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