# Most depraved/brutal rulers pre 1900 **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 24, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672 "2015-08-24T01:30:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/21 "2015-08-24T17:13:26Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > The Death rumor of Catherine the Great has been dis-proven by Snopes. > Her exploits while alive, which seem similar, have not. I was going to ask about Catherine the great. I know the “death by horse” rumours were fabricated but am unsure about the rest of her sexual life. What I will say is that a lot of female rulers have had to put up with these sorts of rumours about their sex lives. The sexual slanders against Elizabeth I in Catholic courts throught Europe(and indeed in London itself) were widespread. Thats not to say every rumour is without merit, but its all too easy to slander a female rulers sex life, especially if that ruler is an adversory. Edit, yes I heard that about Catherine the Great too Malthus. Was Charles II debauched, or, just playfully randy? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/22 "2015-08-24T18:08:26Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Was Charles II debauched, or, just playfully randy? “He was the Father of his Country … or at least, a good many of 'em”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/23 "2015-08-24T18:18:18Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > I was going to ask about Catherine the great. I know the “death by horse” rumours were fabricated but am unsure about the rest of her sexual life. What I will say is that a lot of female rulers have had to put up with these sorts of rumours about their sex lives. The sexual slanders against Elizabeth I in Catholic courts throught Europe(and indeed in London itself) were widespread. Thats not to say every rumour is without merit, but its all too easy to slander a female rulers sex life, especially if that ruler is an adversory. > > Edit, yes I heard that about Catherine the Great too Malthus. I don’t think there is any question that she took lots of lovers. Some of the details are certainly after-the-fact exaggerations, but not her appetite for lovers - that’s a well-established and uncontroversial fact. I sure hope her “erotic cabinet” is real, as that would be hilarious to see! > **[Legends of Catherine the Great](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legends_of_Catherine_the_Great#The_erotic_cabinet)** > > During and after the reign of the Empress Catherine II of Russia, whose long rule led to the modernisation of the Russian Empire, many urban legends arose, some legends based on true events, concerning her sexual behaviour. > Catherine had about 22 male lovers throughout her life, some of whom would reap political benefits from their relationship with her, and many of whom were relatively younger. In addition to her sexual relationships, her multiple relationships with Russian nobles, as well a... ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/24 "2015-08-24T18:33:41Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > I was going to ask about Catherine the great. I know the “death by horse” rumours were fabricated but am unsure about the rest of her sexual life. What I will say is that a lot of female rulers have had to put up with these sorts of rumours about their sex lives. The sexual slanders against Elizabeth I in Catholic courts throught Europe(and indeed in London itself) were widespread. Thats not to say every rumour is without merit, but its all too easy to slander a female rulers sex life, especially if that ruler is an adversory. > > Edit, yes I heard that about Catherine the Great too Malthus. > > Was Charles II debauched, or, just playfully randy? Not just women rulers; many male rulers have had (often accurate) rumours. Humans love to accuse each other of sexual promiscuity. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/25 "2015-08-24T19:22:55Z")
> [@Cmyers1980](#): > > I’m talking rulers who displayed little to no regard for human life, sadistic tendencies, mental instability, psychosis, psychopathy, or any combination thereof. Queen Victoria. [Google](https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=zm3bVZPwMfHs8wei_aOYDA&gws_rd=ssl#q=Child) labour victorian england ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/26 "2015-08-24T20:06:32Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Queen Victoria. > [Google](https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=zm3bVZPwMfHs8wei_aOYDA&gws_rd=ssl#q=Child) labour victorian england Please, just dont. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/27 "2015-08-24T20:09:12Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Please, just dont. What’s your objection? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/28 "2015-08-24T20:23:55Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > What’s your objection? That child labour had existed for centuries. Previous to the Industrial Revolution children had been required to work long hard hours as rural labour, often in direst poverty and hunger. These conditions however were largely hidden. No-one bothered to write about them, or to campaign for the greater rights of children. It was the Victorian period that brought in such childrens rights. If you were to say children often lived appallingly during the Victorian era then I would agree, but they also lived appallingly in the pre-Victorian era. That is the nature of existence in most pre and early industrial societies. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/29 "2015-08-24T20:44:40Z")
Pope Alexander VI was pretty depraved . . . I don’t know how brutal he was, though. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/30 "2015-08-24T20:47:39Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The conquest of the Americas gets marks taken off, because much of the death was caused by introduced disease - plus, not really the work of any one person. Though guys like Cortez and Pizarro were hardly _nice_, their acts (and those of others) created death on a scale they could not really have anticipated. Well, i was thinking of things like setting flesh eating war dogs on native children, stuff like that. but that’s par for the course I suppose, and the natives were doing worse stuff. Now, Montezuma - he’s a good candidate. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/31 "2015-08-24T20:49:55Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > She had a hearty appetite for Russian noblemen - apparently she had her secretary try them out first as a sort of audition - but not (alas) for horses. 😉 Now I speak with some authority here, because I’ve read a full biography of Catherine II - and she was indeed a randy tart mounting anything with epaulettes. But she didn’t chew on their flesh or flay them alive so i don’t think she’s what we are looking for here. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/32 "2015-08-24T21:28:10Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Now, Montezuma - he’s a good candidate. For his time, place and culture, he was not such a bad guy. Of course he ordered a lot of human sacrifices, but that’s what a Revered Speaker **does.** ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/33 "2015-08-24T21:34:25Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > That child labour had existed for centuries. . . . Never by the millions until the industrial revolution. Victoria and especially Albert were among the top mouthpieces for mechanization that turned children into slaves. Not virtual slaves. Slaves. They promoted it and made millions from it. They enslaved, killed and maimed thousands of children — and adults — through their political manoeuvres and investments. Without children, the industrial revolution in the U.K. could not have attained the pinnacles it did. They were the top of the ruling class. I haven’t read a syllable about Victoria caring in the least, and she could not have been ignorant of the industrial-scale suffering and despair. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/34 "2015-08-24T21:47:22Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Now I speak with some authority here, because I’ve read a full biography of Catherine II - and she was indeed a randy tart mounting anything with epaulettes. But she didn’t chew on their flesh or flay them alive so i don’t think she’s what we are looking for here. Oh agreed - her bedroom behaviour is amusing, but if she enters the lists in this contest, it surely would not be for that - more for good old ‘grinding the serfs to pay for all that fun, glittering debauchery’. Like her endearing habit of handing serfs out as party favours to her lovers. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/35 "2015-08-24T21:49:29Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Vlad the Impaler. Beat me to it. Best story I ever read about Vlad was when he received a Turban-wearing ambassador and entourage from the Ottoman Turkish Sultan. Vlad told them that it was a sign of respect in his country to doff your hat in the presence of the lord of the realm. The Turks, who were not going to be ordered around by a minor infidel prince, replied that head covering was a requirement of their religion. Vlad then had the turbans nailed to the Turks’ heads, and sent their corpses back to the Sultan with compliments on their religious obedience. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/36 "2015-08-24T21:52:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Pope Alexander VI was pretty depraved . . . I don’t know how brutal he was, though. He kinda farmed the brutality aspect of the family business out to his son, Cesare … who was the inspiration for _The Prince_ by Machiavelli. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/37 "2015-08-25T02:33:57Z")
Sauron. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/38 "2015-08-25T02:56:30Z")
This seems to be a poll in which no debate has broken out. Off to IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/39 "2015-08-25T03:47:16Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Never by the millions until the industrial revolution. Victoria and especially Albert were among the top mouthpieces for mechanization that turned children into slaves. Not virtual slaves. Slaves. I don’t think that’s entirely fair. It’s not like Victorian England was unique in that. Most of the other countries that modernized at the same time…France, the US, Germany, Belgium, etc, relied on child labor. And while Queen Victoria was probably fine with it happening, it wasn’t government policy that “you must employ children.” It wasn’t some unique brutality or depravity on her part. For that matter, it’s an open question as to how much power Queen Victoria actually had over her government’s actions. She certainly had more control over policy than, say, Queen Elizabeth has now, but Britain was still a Parliamentary democracy, albeit a flawed one, and became moreso, partly at her urging, as her reign went on. Unlike most of the examples here, who were pretty much dictators, able to set policy as they wanted (Leopold II, who was a constitutional monarch in Belgium restrained by the Belgian Parliament, had no such restraints in the Congo), Victoria’s culpability for any of the sins of Victorian Britain has to be limited by the fact that she couldn’t set policy on her own behalf, that she was forced to act through an elected Parliament and Prime Ministers (some of whom, like Gladstone, she didn’t like and didn’t politically agree with.) ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672/40 "2015-08-25T03:51:29Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Never by the millions until the industrial revolution. Victoria and especially Albert were among the top mouthpieces for mechanization that turned children into slaves. Not virtual slaves. Slaves. > > They promoted it and made millions from it. They enslaved, killed and maimed thousands of children — and adults — through their political manoeuvres and investments. Without children, the industrial revolution in the U.K. could not have attained the pinnacles it did. They were the top of the ruling class. > > I haven’t read a syllable about Victoria caring in the least, and she could not have been ignorant of the industrial-scale suffering and despair. There seems to have been an [awful lot of legislation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_Acts) to improve conditions for Industrial Revolution workers, during Victoria’s reign. Did she, by any chance, resist giving the Royal Assent to these, or actively move to ensure they weren’t passed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-depraved-brutal-rulers-pre-1900/728672.md?page=3)