# Most despicable reaction to the Tucson shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2011, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443 "2011-01-13T12:38:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/61 "2011-01-13T16:59:45Z")
Not Democrats (seeing as how many Democrats are anti-gun type folks, references to using guns would be a bit odd, no?), but [here](http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=621) are some examples of other folks talking about whacking Bush (something I’m all in favor of, depending on how one uses that phrase). -XT ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/62 "2011-01-13T17:02:07Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > I hate to defend Palin but I’m reasonably sure that neither she, nor her speech writers, knew about the anti-Semitic connotations or denotations of the phrase “blood libel.” I myself am an educated man, holding a accounting degree and a law degree from Midwestern American universities, and I’d never head the term before this week either. People who want to be our leaders and take on that mantle should be held to a higher standard for the words that come out their mouths. You may not know what that term means, and that’s ok. You also probably don’t choose to use it in a highly charged political environment for millions of people to hear. You also probably don’t want people to view you as a future leader of our society. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/63 "2011-01-13T17:03:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Every single person who keeps trying to politicize this event. That includes, but is not limited to, the OP of this thread. > [@xtisme](#): > > My vote is for everyone, collectively, who is trying to score political points from this tragedy…including the folks on this board. Well, I’m not trying to “score points,” and I haven’t found the better discussions here to be doing so either. Talking about political implications need not be crass partisanship, and I don’t side consistently with any party or politician anyway. Pretending the event “isn’t political” is just useless. This was a political matter the moment the first bullet was fired. Decrying “politicizing” just means rejecting all meaningful discussion. Continuing with Palin’s use of “blood libel,” > [@DrFidelius](#): > > They probably thought that if it was good enough for the Wall Street Journal they could use it as well. I don’t know if any of them actualy read the op-ed piece ( I know I haven’t). 😕 … Okay, [here](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703667904576071913818696964.html) it is. Indeed, Glenn Reynolds does throw it out there without explanation or context. Is it conceivable that not only he, but also the editors of the _Wall Street Journal_, are all unaware of this term? Or that it is _they_ who are willing to deploy it so easily? I confess I’m a little baffled here. It does seem quite likely that Palin’s speechwriters simply lifted it from that piece as you say, which makes them less creative than I was previously calculating. I see another practitioner of contorted apologetics and self-righteous accusations of libel has defended the usage, > [@Alan Dershowitz](#): > > The term “blood libel” has taken on a broad metaphorical meaning in public discourse. Although its historical origins were in theologically based false accusations against the Jews and the Jewish People,its current usage is far broader. I myself have used it to describe false accusations against the State of Israel by the Goldstone Report. There is nothing improper and certainly nothing anti-Semitic in Sarah Palin using the term… Except that, as far as I can see, before this week, the “metaphorical” usages were all applied to criticisms _of_ Jewish people which were (rightly or wrongly) characterized as attacks on them _as_ Jewish people. Even Dershowitz’s own example conforms. So, that’s not very broad. From the _National Review_, not noted for partisan attacks on Republicans, > [@Jonah Goldberg](#): > > Historically, the term is almost invariably used to describe anti-Semitic myths about how Jews use blood — usually from children — in their rituals. I agree entirely with Glenn’s, and now Palin’s, larger point. But I’m not sure either of them intended to **redefine the phrase** , or that they should have. As to general knowledge of the term, > [@zamboniracer](#): > > I think it is a Jewish/Non-Jewish thing. Believe it or not, those of us who didn’t grow up in areas with high Jewish populations don’t know much about Jewish terms. I don’t want to hijack this thread, but believe me, as a Roman Catholic who went to 8 years of Catholic grade school, I have never heard the term before and was certainly never taught that “Jews sacrifice Christian children either to use the blood for various “medicinal” purposes or to prepare Passover Matzoth (unleavened bread) or for vengeance and mock crucifixions”, to use the definition of blood libel from [here](http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/blood_libel.htm). Eh. I’ll give anyone a pass for having missed learning this or that part of world history–there’s a lot of it–but one needn’t be Jewish to know about this, any more than one must be Catholic to have heard of the Penal Laws. Or Father Coughlin. “Blood libel” appears (and is disavowed by Papal edict) in the _Catholic Encyclopedia_, by the way, so it’s _officially_ part of the “cycle of Catholic interests, action and doctrine.” ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/64 "2011-01-13T17:11:10Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I think there’s a difference between a target and crosshairs. The target is something you aim for and the crosshairs are something you aim with. Targeting someone for defeat, even using the graphic of an archery target, is a far cry from using crosshairs, which scream “assassination”… This entire argument is stupid in my opinion, but just to keep things clear, several red dot sights, including those used by the US military use a reticle that matches both the “targets” used by the Democrats on their maps and the “crosshairs” used by Palin. [LINK](http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/opticsplanet/leopold-reticles.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/65 "2011-01-13T17:11:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That is a metaphor. > > “Second Amendment Remedy” is not a metaphor (nor is it a [metonymy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13347056&highlight=metonymy#post13347056) :rolleyes:). > > **As you fucking well know.** Big fucking deal… as you well know, we’re talking about how the morons in society might react to language…aren’t we? ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/66 "2011-01-13T17:13:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: Palin spoke of the charges against her as a [“blood libel”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel) – equating them with a medieval charge against Jews (that they used the blood of Christian babies to make matzohs for Passover), which (1) unlike the charges against Palin here, was totally **unfounded;** and (2) unlike the charges against Palin here, was totally **uninvited** (at least, it does not appear Jewish spokespersons of the period ever expressed any ill-will towards Christian babies even in theory); and (3) when used by Palin, is just too preposterous, dishonest and cynical for words. > > Now, if you want to draw parellels between this and use of “nigger,” then the equivalent usage would have been Palin saying, “They’re trying to make a nigger out of me.” (Something I have heard white Southerners over a certain age say on odd occasions.) Blood libel has a more common meaning now… [according to a famed liberal.](http://biggovernment.com/publius/2011/01/12/exclusive-alan-dershowitz-defends-sarah-palins-use-of-term-blood-libel/) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/67 "2011-01-13T17:24:51Z")
Even Dershowitz’s personal definition still applies to libels against Jews. I could accept broader meanings that would reference factually baseless, sweeping slanders of entire groups of people, but there is no definition which would include Sarah Palin as a victim. She is not metaphorically comparable to a persecuted, medieval Jew. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/68 "2011-01-13T17:26:46Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Blood libel has a more common meaning now… [according to a famed liberal.](http://biggovernment.com/publius/2011/01/12/exclusive-alan-dershowitz-defends-sarah-palins-use-of-term-blood-libel/) This is of course the same famed liberal who [advocated issuance of ‘torture warrants’](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz#.22Want_to_Torture.3F_Get_a_Warrant.22_.282002.29) for suspected terrorists. His views on any particular subject are liable to be ideosyncratic. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/69 "2011-01-13T17:35:38Z")
Alan Dershowitz is “famed”? Since when? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/70 "2011-01-13T17:38:28Z")
Since he was on that show in 90’s about the football player who mudered his wife. I think it only ran for about 2 seasons, but it was a huge hit. He only had a bit part, though. I think he was a wacky neighbor or something. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/71 "2011-01-13T17:45:04Z")
> [@godix](#): > > I’ve heard of the concept before, in relation to the extreme anti-jewish beliefs common in some parts of the middle east. However, I don’t think I’ve ever actually heard the term blood libel. Or if I had, it wasn’t often enough that I recognized what it meant when Palin used it. > > Rather than being surprised that so many people have not heard of blood libel, or the concept behind it, I’m rather happy. The fact it isn’t widely known means that at least one specific type of bigotry has quit being spread, in America at least. It is interesting that, in the Middle Ages, Jews were accused of evil and preposterous things (the baby-blood thing, and poisoning wells to cause the plague) which at any rate were not theoretically **impossible** for people of a powerless and oppressed minority minority to do. And then, in the 19th Century – an increasingly and consciously scientific age – antisemitic theories completely slipped the moorings of reality and Jews started getting the blame for wars, revolutions, and economic crises. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/72 "2011-01-13T17:48:45Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Big fucking deal… as you well know, we’re talking about how the morons in society might react to language…aren’t we? You mean like [these guys](http://mediamatters.org/research/201101130002) or [this guy](http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/what-violent-rhetoric-another-right-). Just morons reacting to language. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/73 "2011-01-13T18:27:01Z")
Go on, RWs. Keep trying to turn this around. Keep trying to create false equivalence. **You can’t do it.** ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/74 "2011-01-13T18:27:12Z")
## Well, it’s happening, the Tea party is blaming the victims. Tucson tea party founder says Giffords to blame for getting shot One tea party leader says that Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ) has herself to blame for getting shot in the head Saturday. The Arizona congresswoman shouldn’t have attended an event “in full view of the public” if she had security concerns, according to Tucson Tea Party co-founder Trent Humphries. … “It’s political gamesmanship,” he told the Guardian. “The real case is that she [Giffords] had no security whatsoever at this event. So if she lived under a constant fear of being targeted, if she lived under this constant fear of this rhetoric and hatred that was seething, why would she attend an event in full view of the public with no security whatsoever?” “For all the stuff they accuse [Palin] of, that gun poster has not done a tenth of the damage to the political discourse as what we’re hearing right now.” “There are people who are genuinely confused, scared, and I understand it. But there are also people who are deliberately manipulating this event and tragedy for political ends,” Humpries added. And he may be right. Another tea party group in California has been using the tragedy to raise money. … Trent Humphries says killings fallout is evolving into conspiracy to destroy Tea Party and silence criticism of government > **[We're Arizona shooting victims too, says Tea Party co-founder](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jan/11/arizona-shootings-tea-party)** > > Trent Humphries says killings fallout is evolving into conspiracy to destroy Tea Party and silence criticism of government [http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/tea-party-express-seeks-donations-tucson-shootings-aftermath/](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/tea-party-express-seeks-donations-tucson-shootings-aftermath/) ## Tea Party Express fundraises off reaction to Arizona shootings In a sign that the national dialogue has only grown more rancorous since the attacks, the message claimed liberals were trying to “blame us for a mass murder” and control their speech, adding that “we’re not going to stand for that kind of treatment.” The e-mail continued (emphasis theirs): “That’s why we’ve asked you for your support. Let’s show the Left that instead of us being silenced, that there awful attacks on us will only backfire and that the tea party movement will be stronger than ever!” Please don’t tell me that this is anything less than disgusting and repulsive. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/75 "2011-01-13T19:37:10Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Blood libel has a more common meaning now… [according to a famed liberal.](http://biggovernment.com/publius/2011/01/12/exclusive-alan-dershowitz-defends-sarah-palins-use-of-term-blood-libel/) :rolleyes: “I myself have used it to describe false accusations against the State of Israel by the Goldstone Report” ain’t much of a defense; it just goes to show there’s more than one kind of dishonest asshole. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/76 "2011-01-13T19:41:12Z")
[http://thinkprogress.org/2011/01/13/gohmert-fbi-critic/](http://thinkprogress.org/2011/01/13/gohmert-fbi-critic/) (Utterly non-political, straight news site with no agenda whatsoever. OK,maybe a little…) \*\*Gohmert Says FBI ‘Stonewalled’ On Shooter Profile To Avoid ‘Embarrassing’ Obama’s Constituents \*\* Verily, I shit thee not. He says the FBI knows the shooter was a lefty, but is covering it up. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/77 "2011-01-13T20:15:06Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > ## Well, it’s happening, the Tea party is blaming the victims. > > Tucson tea party founder says Giffords to blame for getting shot > One tea party leader says that Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ) has herself to blame for getting shot in the head Saturday. > The Arizona congresswoman shouldn’t have attended an event “in full view of the public” if she had security concerns, according to Tucson Tea Party co-founder Trent Humphries. > … “It’s political gamesmanship,” he told the Guardian. “The real case is that she [Giffords] had no security whatsoever at this event. So if she lived under a constant fear of being targeted, if she lived under this constant fear of this rhetoric and hatred that was seething, why would she attend an event in full view of the public with no security whatsoever?” > “For all the stuff they accuse [Palin] of, that gun poster has not done a tenth of the damage to the political discourse as what we’re hearing right now.” > “There are people who are genuinely confused, scared, and I understand it. But there are also people who are deliberately manipulating this event and tragedy for political ends,” Humpries added. > And he may be right. Another tea party group in California has been using the tragedy to raise money. > … Trent Humphries says killings fallout is evolving into conspiracy to destroy Tea Party and silence criticism of government > [We're Arizona shooting victims too, says Tea Party co-founder | Arizona shooting | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/11/arizona-shootings-tea-party) > > [http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/tea-party-express-seeks-donations-tucson-shootings-aftermath/](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/tea-party-express-seeks-donations-tucson-shootings-aftermath/) > > ## Tea Party Express fundraises off reaction to Arizona shootings In a sign that the national dialogue has only grown more rancorous since the attacks, the message claimed liberals were trying to “blame us for a mass murder” and control their speech, adding that “we’re not going to stand for that kind of treatment.” The e-mail continued (emphasis theirs): “That’s why we’ve asked you for your support. Let’s show the Left that instead of us being silenced, that there awful attacks on us will only backfire and that the tea party movement will be stronger than ever!” > > Please don’t tell me that this is anything less than disgusting and repulsive. You win the thread. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/78 "2011-01-13T20:43:47Z")
I don’t know if Ms. Palin was familiar with the term “blood libel” or not, but either way her brain reached for “libel” and some synapses just enriched that word for her with a handy adjective. Much like refute/repudiate made “refudiate.” This is another example of her frank spontaneity which is so endearing. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/79 "2011-01-13T21:08:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How about Republican Peter King’s proposal to ban guns within 1000 feet of government officials? Any righties upset about that? At least the Dems are philosophically consistent. King is ostensibly all for gun rights, but not if he’s in your presence. I don’t know exactly how ‘righty’ I am, but I’m pretty sure further right than you so I’ll say this: Slippery Slope I’ll add another reasonable reason. If you are going to be supportive of gun ownership and carry laws, then they don’t need to have little caveats attached to them or you’ll end up with a thousand different ones. Can’t carry near schools, can’t carry near ‘political figures’ (as if they are so much more important than us), see where this will eventually lead? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443/80 "2011-01-13T22:40:46Z")
It’s not like that law would have stopped this shooter anyway. It’s kind of silly to think that someone wouuld be willing to commit mass murder, but not willing to break a carry law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-despicable-reaction-to-the-tucson-shootings/567443.md?page=5)