# Most efficient use of land for growing food? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 10, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836 "2011-09-10T16:49:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/41 "2011-09-15T03:19:38Z")
My mom raises a handful of chickens in her back yard, and she really does get an average of nearly an egg a day (and an extremely large egg, at that) each, year-round. Her “sophisticated infrastructure” consists of a couple of light bulbs on timers. The cost is negligible compared to the feed, which is itself very cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/42 "2011-09-15T03:41:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > My mom raises a handful of chickens in her back yard, and she really does get an average of nearly an egg a day (and an extremely large egg, at that) each, year-round. Her “sophisticated infrastructure” consists of a couple of light bulbs on timers. The cost is negligible compared to the feed, which is itself very cheap. My mother did that too, and she also got nearly an egg a day per chicken. But they only last a few months at that rate. She kept them for 7 or 8 months, then butchered them (got almost no meat from them; it all went into the eggs). Then she had to buy a new set of laying hens. She actually bought them in spring, butchered them in late fall, and had none over winter. (Our chicken coop wasn’t built for Minnesota winters.) ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/43 "2011-09-15T03:43:55Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I think you might want to go back and see what he said exactly and keep in kind that Dr. Wrangham is a primatologist and not a dietician. > > I did some checking and part of the starches in Potatos are Resistant Starches that are broken down by the bacteria in the lower intestine instead on the enzymes in the upper intestine. This creates short-chain fatty acids which are considered better for you than starches that break down into glucose in the upper intestine, since it doesn’t raise your blood glucose. > > [http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/nutrition/a/resistantstarch.htm](http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/nutrition/a/resistantstarch.htm) None of which has any bearing on the issue being discussed. Do you have any evidence at all to support your claim that the available calories of cooked and uncooked potatoes are the same? Because it contradicts the highly reputable link I provided above, and everything else I have ever read on the subject/. > [@](#): > > If you couldn’t get calories from raw potatoes, then surely the raw potato diet book would be on be on the best seller list. 😕 You couldn’t get calories from newspaper or lawn clippings either. By your logic the newspaper and lawn clippings diet book would be on be on the best seller list. This is a total non sequitur. Humans can’t get any calories from the vast majority of substances in the world. That doesn’t mean they are pleasant to eat or have no side effects. Raw potatoes are tasteless, astringent and cause flatulence and diarrhea amongst other things. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/44 "2011-09-15T04:16:28Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > What? A potato is one of many vegetables that can be readily eaten raw. And for potatoes, there is no significant difference in the ‘digestibility’ or absorbed calories for either raw or cooked. (Though that’s not true for all vegetables.) https://www.youtube.com/embed/6Nq1yBKowz4?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque 38:50 if you want to go right to the spot in question. potatoes are not something you want to eat raw, but you are free to try it and report back to us on how it went. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/45 "2011-09-15T05:23:02Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nq1yBKowz4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nq1yBKowz4) > 38:50 if you want to go right to the spot in question. > > potatoes are not something you want to eat raw, but you are free to try it and report back to us on how it went. The link is to sweet potatoes not potatoes and by the way we are not mice. I’ve read a little bit about what these guys are claiming and they are a bunch of flakes who are vegetarians who are trying to prove their ancestors didn’t eat meat and claim we started cooking our food 1.8 million years ago, instead of 250,000 years that conventional archaeologists claim. BTW, Potatoes and Sweet Potatoes didn’t exist in Africa until a few hundred years ago when we brought them from the new world. I’ve eaten raw potatoes and they aren’t great, but they are edible. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/46 "2011-09-15T15:11:01Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I skimmed the article and thought it was somewhat fanciful. I live in Central Florida and we have a lot of greenhouses and know a lot about indoor farming. There is demand for vegetables and flowers out of season, but if that article was true it wouldn’t make much sense to use conventional outdoor farming. The limitations on feeding another 3 billion people isn’t land, but money and water. Water wouldn’t be as much of a limitation in a closed and controlled environment as you could recycle most of what didn’t end up as part of the crops. I think energy could be the limiting factor in high rise farming since, at least in the lower levels, you’d need grow lights. Then again, if you’re growing the food near the consumers, the energy you save from not having to transport it might make up for (or even more than make up for) the energy used to grow it. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/47 "2011-09-15T15:32:42Z")
Fascinating discussion. I encourage anyone who likes sf to read George R.R. Martin’s _Tuf Voyaging_. One of the planets visited by the book’s antihero, Haviland Tuf, is Suthlam (think about it), a planet with a strongly pro-life culture that’s more and more overpopulated each time he goes there. Using the impressive ecological-engineering capabilities of his starship, Tuf helps them become increasingly efficient in producing food, until things reach a breaking point. A great novel, and an interesting exploration of the issues. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/48 "2011-09-15T18:47:40Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Fascinating discussion. > > I encourage anyone who likes sf to read George R.R. Martin’s _Tuf Voyaging_. One of the planets visited by the book’s antihero, Haviland Tuf, is Suthlam (think about it), a planet with a strongly pro-life culture that’s more and more overpopulated each time he goes there. Using the impressive ecological-engineering capabilities of his starship, Tuf helps them become increasingly efficient in producing food, until things reach a breaking point. A great novel, and an interesting exploration of the issues. I read a very interesting book by Stewart Brand called **The Whole Earth Discipline** You can find a summary of his ideas here: [http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/14406/page1/](http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/14406/page1/) The current trends indicate that the earth population should peak at somewhere around 9-10 billion people. A more urban population simply have less children. Women get jobs and end up with better things to do with their time than be baby making machines. The way I express it is, “Who knew that a paycheck is an effective contraceptive?”. Some of the harshest words in his book are for former friends of his that oppose genetically modified crops of various sort. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/49 "2011-09-15T20:44:05Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > … Potatoes particularly are always mentioned as an example of a food, that when raw, has no available calories. And no taste either. Sure they have a taste. Have you tasted them? I have. They taste awful. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lestrade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Lestrade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lestrade)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/50 "2011-09-16T02:26:16Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The link is to sweet potatoes not potatoes and by the way we are not mice. I’ve read a little bit about what these guys are claiming and they are a bunch of flakes who are vegetarians who are trying to prove their ancestors didn’t eat meat and claim we started cooking our food 1.8 million years ago, instead of 250,000 years that conventional archaeologists claim. > > BTW, Potatoes and Sweet Potatoes didn’t exist in Africa until a few hundred years ago when we brought them from the new world. > > I’ve eaten raw potatoes and they aren’t great, but they are edible. No, the link addresses potatoes, you just didn’t watch the right segment. The mouse segment is directly before a segment that described results obtained using an artificial gut. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/51 "2011-09-16T12:50:42Z")
> [@groman](#): > > The trick is that not all animals are able to digest all foodstuffs equally. The scenario I am envisioning is that a chunk of land can easily grow something that has absolutely no caloric value to a human, and would require tons of energy in fertilization, tilling, weeding, planting and watering to grow anything directly edible to a human. However, what already does grow there on its own is a perfectly good food source for some animal. But that is quite a different example than the question the OP asked. The OP started with a hypothetical where the land could be used **equally well** for either animals or direct food production; and in that scenario, using animals would waste calories. (The math mistake the OPs friend made was pointed out early on). What you are proposing has already been answered, it’s the dairy farm method: if only grass grows in your climate, you keep cows to feed on the grass and make use of their milk, instead of trying to grow wheat when it’s too cold or wet to really prosper. > [@](#): > > Why is it so hard to believe that the inefficiency of using a step that involves animals might be lower than the inefficiency of using horticulture? Because you can’t change thermodynamics. Animals will use calories to maintain themselves, and only a few calories to gain weight. So if your plot of earth can be farmed, farm it; if no human-food can be grown directly, then using animals vs. letting it fall waste is better. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/52 "2011-09-16T15:11:14Z")
> [@Lestrade](#): > > No, the link addresses potatoes, you just didn’t watch the right segment. The mouse segment is directly before a segment that described results obtained using an artificial gut. The artificial gut doesn’t simulate the bacterial process that occurs in the lower intestine. If you had bothered to read the link I provided, then you would know that resistant starches are digested by a fermentation process in the lower intestines. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/53 "2011-09-17T00:31:28Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The artificial gut doesn’t simulate the bacterial process that occurs in the lower intestine. If you had bothered to read the link I provided, then you would know that resistant starches are digested by a fermentation process in the lower intestines. For the second time: do you have even a shred of evidence to support your claim that humans can obtain significant calories from raw potatoes? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/54 "2011-09-17T00:33:45Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The artificial gut doesn’t simulate the bacterial process that occurs in the lower intestine. If you had bothered to read the link I provided, then you would know that resistant starches are digested by a fermentation process in the lower intestines. For the second time: do you have even a shred of evidence to support your claim that humans can obtain significant calories from raw potatoes? Regardless of what may happen in the lower intestines, it would be useless to as a source of calories. The colon is designed primarily for water absorption. There simply are not significant amounts of fat being absorbed from the lower intestine regardless of how much may be produced there. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/55 "2011-09-17T05:15:09Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > For the second time: do you have even a shred of evidence to support your claim that humans can obtain significant calories from raw potatoes? If you had bothered to read the link I posted in #39 it has the information with the links to the published papers on the second page including references to: American Journal of Clinical Nutrition British Journal of Nutrition Nutrition and Metabolism Diabetologia ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/56 "2011-09-17T05:30:41Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Regardless of what may happen in the lower intestines, it would be useless to as a source of calories. The colon is designed primarily for water absorption. There simply are not significant amounts of fat being absorbed from the lower intestine regardless of how much may be produced there. [http://www.ajcn.org/content/83/4/817.full](http://www.ajcn.org/content/83/4/817.full) **Colonic fermentation of indigestible carbohydrates contributes to the second-meal effect** Do you have any nutrition references instead of things you saw on TV? ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Oliver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ab097/32.png) [@Roland\_Oliver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Oliver)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/57 "2015-12-25T01:41:19Z")
I assume that most of you are American. That in my view qualifies you to be experts in everything. No offfence intended, I normally respect most people. However, not in the case where our very survival is under threat. No, I do not refer to the ‘Terrorists’ Crazy, mad, fanatical psychopathic killers, you would have me believe. So the answer is a military coalition where one has such odd military and ideological rivals whose one stated objective is to sort out ISIS for once and for all. Jihadists are devout religious observers who believe that to kill the ‘infidel’ is their religious duty and should they die in the attack they are certain to enter Paradise. But ISIS is evil, I hear you say. Yes, I would tend to agree. But Nazism was evil and it took the most devastating war in the history of mankind to defeat that creed. However, we do not have the problem of Nazis attacking anywhere, anytime, anyplace anymore. If one tries to understand why the Middle East is so unstable, one needs to understand what motivates a ‘Terrorist’ Of course when certain people assume they already have the answer because they are experts in everything, then it becomes a futile exercise. It does not matter that the cause is first they do not like occupation by a foreign power, they do no accept ‘Democracy’ and strangely the third reason is their religion. But the people of America don’t need to know this. See the truth, know the truth but keep believing the lies. So thanks Europe for looking after the refugees but it’s now your problem, not ours. There is a definition of a critic 'One who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing. I read so many entries on your form about the ‘efficiency’ of land to produce food. All that was considered was ‘calories’ We need more than calories to exist and survive. Nothing will grow in infertile soil. All animals and other life will be destroyed as a result. Now I am not an agricultural science expert but I do know that half the word’s top soil has been destroyed in the last 150 years and those whose only concern is to profit from food production are hell bent in destroying the remainder. Our time on Earth as the confused human who assumes we have now become master of the Earth is limited. Foolish man will put an end to life. Now relax and amuse yourself with the latest ‘Celeb’ new and ‘Star Wars’ diversions. ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/58 "2015-12-25T04:42:59Z")
Don’t feed the zombie. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/59 "2015-12-25T05:39:59Z")
Ok I know this is a zombie but its a fascinating thread. I found this relevant article: > **[Edible Algae: Thai-Style Urban Farming Includes Sustainable Rooftop...](https://www.medicaldaily.com/edible-algae-thai-style-urban-farming-includes-sustainable-rooftop-cultivation-spirulina-254657)** > > In Bangkok, urban farming company EnerGaia has begun to cultivate spirulina, an edible algae, on rooftops. They claim that edible spirulina algae grown in tubs can double its mass in 24 hours. They harvest it 3 times a week!! I would imagine you could place transparent tubs on stands raised about 3 feet off the ground. Plant shade tolerant plants on the ground then let chickens feed off the insects and some of the spirulina and lastly put a mushroom cave underneath. This may not be the absolute optimum but I’m guessing some kind of edible algae is the most efficient in terms of calories per cubic foot. And if Rice is allowed which requires water logged fields then algaes grown in water should also be allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836/60 "2015-12-25T07:50:16Z")
tl;dr version: > [@Roland\_Oliver](#): > > …ISIS is evil… > …Nazism was evil… > …I am not an agricultural science expert… > …‘Star Wars’… And thank you for reviving this zombie, it was a fascinating read. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-efficient-use-of-land-for-growing-food/595836.md?page=4)