# Most "free" country in the world? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 13, 2020, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417 "2020-03-13T15:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/21 "2020-03-14T04:24:44Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I spent a week in Somaliland three years ago-- Hargeisa and Berbera. I visited in the private homes of poor people who had almost no belongings. They were happy and contented. The city is orderly and vibrant and safe. Important goods are available at reasonable cost. Wifi and electricity are more reliable than Ethiopia. > > Sharia law is not a problem, Muslims practice their faith according to their own conscience, and hospitality and tolerance for non-Muslims is a high priority. I always felt a welcome guest (as I do in all Muslim countries), displays of friendship seemed genuine. That’s very interesting. What brought you to Somaliland? (and why doesn’t my dictionary recognize that word?) ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/22 "2020-03-14T11:58:32Z")
Going with the OP’s attitude I’d say Oceania. Yes, there’s Big Brother and The Party but people seem to be fine with it. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/23 "2020-03-14T18:47:41Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I spent a week in Somaliland three years ago-- Hargeisa and Berbera. I visited in the private homes of poor people who had almost no belongings. They were happy and contented. The city is orderly and vibrant and safe. Important goods are available at reasonable cost. Wifi and electricity are more reliable than Ethiopia. > > Sharia law is not a problem, Muslims practice their faith according to their own conscience, and hospitality and tolerance for non-Muslims is a high priority. I always felt a welcome guest (as I do in all Muslim countries), displays of friendship seemed genuine. Hmm, orderly, vibrant, and safe. That part of the world is usually depicted as an anarchic, God-forsaken, Mad Max wasteland. Just goes to show that “anarchy” doesn’t last long, and that government in some form or another emerges, usually quickly. What were you doing in Somaliland? Where you there for work? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/24 "2020-03-14T18:55:30Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > I don’t know if or how much he paid to the cops and protection rackets, but it was probably mild compared to what he would have had to pay in taxes, fees etc in America. And one day, the cops or the protection people will raise their fees, or a competitor will pay them off so that they look the other way when he breaks the barber’s chair, tosses his scissors into the river, and promises to throw him in next if he dares to return. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/25 "2020-03-14T19:23:38Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Hmm, orderly, vibrant, and safe. But are the hookers up to your standards? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/26 "2020-03-14T19:34:56Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > ETA: Echoing **Marcus Flavius** , the kickbacks and bribes paid here are generally much less costly than the fees charged in more organized countries like the U.S.A. On an absolute basis, or as a percentage of income? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/27 "2020-03-14T19:40:10Z")
Now that I think about it, I’d rather make $100,000 and pay $50,000 in taxes, than make $10,000 and pay $2,000 in kickbacks. Sure, I’d be less “free”, but I’d have more money. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/28 "2020-03-14T20:43:54Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > For me, it’s certainly not any of the managerial, bureaucratic western nations. I would be inclined to say Somaliland. > … > > People have funny ideas about freedom. I was speaking with a man who had been to China. He was telling me about how he saw a guy with a kitchen chair under an overpass giving people haircuts and putting the cash in his pocket. In “the Land of the Free”, how many federal, state, and local laws would be be breaking? Sure, In Somalia people are “free” because there is really no government. So suppose you had some nice stuff. A few guys would just come over to your place, hack you to pieces and walk away with your stuff. No one would stop them. This is not freedom, this is anarchy. Here is what one large, recognized org says is Freedom:[https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new](https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new) _Rule of Law Security and Safety Movement Religion Association, Assembly, and Civil Society Expression and Information Identity and Relationships Size of Government Legal System and Property Rights Access to Sound Money Freedom to Trade Internationally Regulation of Credit, Labor, and Business_ Note that Rule of Law and Security and Safety are paramount. Somalia and Somaliland are so anarchic that they are usually listed as “no data” But here: [https://rsf.org/en/ranking\_table](https://rsf.org/en/ranking_table) they rate 164 out of 180. China is likely one of the least free nations in the world. it rates 177. The USA ranks 48th. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/29 "2020-03-14T23:41:36Z")
Let’s try this again in the spirit of fighting ignorance: > [@Ruken](#): > > [Somaliland - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaliland) > Vs > [Somalia - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia) One of these barely has a government that barely controls much beyond the capital city, if even that. One is a relatively stable democracy that has been de facto independent, if unrecognized, for nearly thirty years. Still not somewhere I’d want to live, but definitely not anarchy. The post immediately above mine even quotes the OP and then goes on to talk about Somalia. _After_ I already posted those links. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/30 "2020-03-15T02:26:47Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Let’s try this again in the spirit of fighting ignorance: > > One of these barely has a government that barely controls much beyond the capital city, if even that. One is a relatively stable democracy that has been de facto independent, if unrecognized, for nearly thirty years. Still not somewhere I’d want to live, but definitely not anarchy. > > The post immediately above mine even quotes the OP and then goes on to talk about Somalia. _After_ I already posted those links. :smack: Yes, we know Somaliland is a quasi independent nation, which has had a semblance of a Democratic government since around 1991. Unfortunately, there’s no hard data about conditions or freedoms there, and almost none about Somali itself. Puntland also declared independence a little while ago. I admit Somaliland is off to a good start, but little is known, and that fact that the area is unstable, and it remains unrecognized does not bode well. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/31 "2020-03-15T02:55:30Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Hmm, orderly, vibrant, and safe. That part of the world is usually depicted as an anarchic, God-forsaken, Mad Max wasteland. Just goes to show that “anarchy” doesn’t last long, and that government in some form or another emerges, usually quickly. > > What were you doing in Somaliland? Where you there for work? I didn’t repeat the part in the OP, but Somalia has absolutely no authority in Somaliland, which is going it alone. Their own circulating currency, license plates, immigration control. No country recognizes Somaliland, but they have an office in Ethiopia that issues visas. I was in Ethiopia and decided to make a side trip to Somaliland and Djibouti. All my travel is on my own. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/32 "2020-03-15T03:22:29Z")
There are a few Youtube videos by travelers in Somaland, who had pretty much the same impression as mine. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/33 "2020-03-16T12:02:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, we know Somaliland is a quasi independent nation, which has had a semblance of a Democratic government since around 1991. You’re welcome. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Unfortunately, there’s no hard data about conditions or freedoms there, and almost none about Somali itself. And the solution to poor data is not worse data. Your post was like responding to an OP about Taiwan with data from China. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/34 "2020-03-17T00:44:16Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Using Somaliland is a bit of a straw man. Most people who argue for free governance (such as libertarians) are not arguing for anarchy - they still want a government to provide an environment of safety and law and order, but then more or leave people to their devices within that safe environment. My one-time friend who was a staunch libertarian wanted a strong police force and military and nothing else from the government. If you owned a house, you also owned the road in front of it and everyone who wanted to use that had to stop and pay a toll. Obviously, there would be no public schools, not that you could get there if there were. In the current covid crisis, people would just get sick and some die until so many would be immune until R \< 1. Anyone want to practice medicine? Put up a shingle and call yourself doctor. Need water? Dig a well. Global warming? Too bad if the earth becomes uninhabitable. Real freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/35 "2020-03-17T02:16:00Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > My one-time friend who was a staunch libertarian wanted a strong police force and military and nothing else from the government. What would the police enforce? ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/36 "2020-03-17T02:58:32Z")
I forgot which Chinese philosopher said "The best government is the most corrupt. They come and collect taxes every year, and the rest of the time, they leave you alone. ’ ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/37 "2020-03-17T08:41:23Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Now that I think about it, I’d rather make $100,000 and pay $50,000 in taxes, than make $10,000 and pay $2,000 in kickbacks. Sure, I’d be less “free”, but I’d have more money. 😕 Was this intended for the _“Best governed country”_ or _“Most contented people”_ thread? This thread is _Most “free” country in the world?_ I didn’t think you were American but, yes, many Americans conflate these totally different criteria. But since off-topic digressions are OK in _IMHO_, I’ll say: Yes, on balance the standard of governance and overall contentment are probably higher in the USA than in Thailand. _But those gaps are narrowing rapidly._ ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/38 "2020-03-17T09:39:46Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 😕 Was this intended for the _“Best governed country”_ or _“Most contented people”_ thread? This thread is _Most “free” country in the world?_ I didn’t think you were American but, yes, many Americans conflate these totally different criteria. > \* Actually, in my experience, of all the people in the world, Americans are \*least \*likely to conflate these criteria. To Americans, “freedom” means freedom from government; very few other nations think the same way. That’s why the Iraqis though that being occupied by the United States made them less free - because while Saddam Hussein may have repressed them on a personal basis, at least he kept them free on a national basis, and to them, national freedom was more important than personal freedom. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/39 "2020-03-17T19:48:45Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > … To Americans, “freedom” means freedom from government; very few other nations think the same way. That’s why the Iraqis though that being occupied by the United States made them less free - because while Saddam Hussein may have repressed them on a personal basis, at least he kept them free on a national basis, and to them, national freedom was more important than personal freedom. A large portion of the world’s countries have either no outside interference, or minor outside interference. (The Brits resented EU regulations; some debtor countries resented IMF rules, and so on; but these resentments were mild compared with internal affairs.) Extreme examples, like Iraq under repressive American administration are exceptional, except in cases of war. _(Iraqis BTW were largely delighted with the American intervention, until the American-imposed governance proved itself to be incompetent, corrupt and operating contrary to Iraqi interests.)_ But yes, people do resent when their country is conquered, or repressed by an outside country. How do Palestinians feel? How do you think Americans would feel if Canada or Mexico somehow conquered the U.S. and mistreated the American people? TL;DR: Your ostensible point is obvious and trivial; presumably it’s intended as shorthand for something more profound, _ **but I’ve no idea what that point might be.** _ ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417/40 "2020-03-18T02:49:16Z")
There are only a handful of countries, where ordinary people are denied simple day-to-day freedoms. Like a choice of career or workplace, education opportunity, family structure, where to live or how to spend your leisure time. . Where those freedoms are denied, it is often a social dynamic rather than government edict that is the hindrance. A great majority of the world’s people live daily with pretty much the same personal freedom Americans have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-free-country-in-the-world/849417.md?page=3)