# Most important Christian hoaxes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582 "2003-03-23T18:26:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/21 "2003-03-24T03:57:51Z")
Most ram’s horns curl around the ram’s head. I’m thinking of an ungulate with horns that stick straight out, but they’re curly. Come to think of it, maybe it is a ram, but it’s a different breed. What kind of ram does a shofar come from? ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/22 "2003-03-24T04:13:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*What’s the animal with the long horns that stick straight out of the sides of its head, but are all twisty? I’m thinking of having Satan be the narrator of the comic, and those would be cool horns for him to have. (But in order to do it, I need a photo reference.) \*\* [Kudu?](http://www.sa-venues.com/wildlife/wildlife_kudu.htm) [Springbok?](http://www.sa-venues.com/wildlife/wildlife_springbok.htm) [Impala?](http://www.sa-venues.com/wildlife/wildlife_impala.htm) [Bushbuck?](http://www.sa-venues.com/wildlife/wildlife_bushbuck.htm) All of the above have spiffy demonic-looking horns. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji\_Kitakyusho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@Fuji\_Kitakyusho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji_Kitakyusho)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/23 "2003-03-24T04:29:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*I’ve been thinking that it would be interesting to make a comic tract about Christian hoaxes and how not to be fooled by them, and I was hoping folks here could help me figure out what high points to hit. > > The list of possibilities thus far: > > 1.) Mike Warnke/Satanic Panic > 2.) the “audio recording of hell” > 3.) Paluxy River footprints > 4.) The Shroud of Turin > 5.) The April Fool’s joke that sent creationists to Turkey looking for the Ark. > 6.) Jonathan Wells’ list of 57 scientists who disagree with evolution > > Bear in mind that I’m explicitly interested in hoaxes and frauds. Near-Death experiences don’t count, because that’s just debunking a mistake. The Bible Code is arguably in the same category. > > So what outright frauds are most important to debunk? \*\* 7.) The Existence of God. (yeah - I’m a shit disturber…) -FK ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/24 "2003-03-24T04:32:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darwin’s Finch \* > \*\*[Kudu?](http://www.sa-venues.com/wildlife/wildlife_kudu.htm) > [Springbok?](http://www.sa-venues.com/wildlife/wildlife_springbok.htm) > [Impala?](http://www.sa-venues.com/wildlife/wildlife_impala.htm) > [Bushbuck?](http://www.sa-venues.com/wildlife/wildlife_bushbuck.htm) > > All of the above have spiffy demonic-looking horns. \*\* Or maybe the [Argali Sheep](http://www.earthisland.org/tpp/argaliweb.jpg)? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/25 "2003-03-24T05:19:20Z")
The kudu or maybe the bushbuck will do nicely, although none of them are quite what I was thinking of. I think it was some breed of ram, but the point is kind of moot now. Thanks! So as far as creationism goes, what’s the most popular hoax, other than Paluxy? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/26 "2003-03-24T05:33:22Z")
It doesn’t have spiraling horn, but the [Arabian Oryx](http://www.ecssr.ac.ae/10uae.oryx.html) (_[Oryx leucoryx](http://www.stlzoo.org/CONTENT.ASP?page_name=oryx)_), has ribbed horns that look interesting. (Aristotle made a passing reference to these critters when discussing the unicorn.) If you’re looking for ram’s horn, then you might try a ram of the [Jacob’s sheep](http://www.johnes.org/gif/photos-goats/Jacobs_ram308.jpg) that has _four_ horns. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/27 "2003-03-24T05:39:27Z")
It doesn’t have spiraling horn, but the [Arabian Oryx](http://www.ecssr.ac.ae/10uae.oryx.html) (_[Oryx leucoryx](http://www.stlzoo.org/CONTENT.ASP?page_name=oryx)_), has ribbed horns that look interesting. (Aristotle made a passing reference to these critters when discussing the unicorn.) If you’re looking for ram’s horn, then you might try a ram of the [Jacob’s sheep](http://www.johnes.org/gif/photos-goats/Jacobs_ram308.jpg) that has _four_ horns. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/28 "2003-03-24T05:51:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*So as far as creationism goes, what’s the most popular hoax, other than Paluxy? \*\* Actually, I think the Paluxy trackway bit was more of a gross misinterpretation of existing evidence than an outright hoax - rather like most of creation “science”, actually. The trackways really do exist, they just don’t represent what the creationists think they do. One item which is kind of out there in the nebulous region of “who the heck knows, but odds are pretty good it’s a hoax” are the [Acambaro “Dinosaurs”](http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-acambaro.htm). And, similar to your #5 Ark hoax, there is the [Jammal Ark Hoax](http://www.skeptic.com/02.3.lippard-ark-hoax.html#intro). ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/29 "2003-03-24T05:54:16Z")
I had heard that the Paluxy tracks had also been enhanced with hammer and chisel in some cases, and that the same people had later decided to start making “Bigfoot tracks” for sale, too. Yes, the “human” footprints are really dinosaur prints, but from what I understand there’s an element of fraud, too. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/30 "2003-03-24T06:08:05Z")
Ah. It seems the [“Burdick Print”](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy/wilker5.html) is of the “hoax” variety… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/31 "2003-03-24T07:03:32Z")
It may not qualify as a hoax, but certainly Nebraska Man (_Hesperopithecus haroldcookii_), as presented in Creationist literature, is one of the Great Lies of Creationism. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/32 "2003-03-24T13:23:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*I’ve been thinking that it would be interesting to make a comic tract about Christian hoaxes and how not to be fooled by them, and I was hoping folks here could help me figure out what high points to hit. > > The list of possibilities thus far: > > 1.) Mike Warnke/Satanic Panic > 2.) the “audio recording of hell” > 3.) Paluxy River footprints > 4.) The Shroud of Turin > 5.) The April Fool’s joke that sent creationists to Turkey looking for the Ark. > 6.) Jonathan Wells’ list of 57 scientists who disagree with evolution > > \*\* Important? Important how? I went to Catholic schools from kindergartertn through high school, and I can tell you that I NEVER heard of 5 of those “important” hoaxes. I’d heard of the Shroud of Turin, of course, but it was only mentioned once or twice as an interesting artifact, never as a major article of faith or even as “proof” of the existence of Jesus. As even most debunkers are aware, when the Shroud first surfaced, centuries ago, the local bishop called it a clever fake, and indicated that he knew the artist who had created it. So, given that, from the very beginning, the Church hierarchy was skeptical of the Shroud’s legitimacy, I can’t see why it’s “important” to debunk it, or how the recent Carbon 14 tests (which show it’s only about 600 years old, not 2000 years old) undermines CHristianity in any way. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/33 "2003-03-24T14:36:23Z")
There was a book called Michelle Remembers and other ones like it about women who had supposedly been kidnapped and forced to bear children which were sacrificed to Satan. I’ve read Lots of christian books and there weer some that proved “fakes”, like the Satan Seller by Warnke. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/34 "2003-03-24T16:33:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astorian \* > \*\*Important? Important how? \*\* Important in that ignorant fundamentalists keep yammering about them? Important in that they hurt people? I’m surprised that you’ve never heard of the Noah’s Ark hoaxes. Haven’t you ever heard of that “In Search of Noah’s Ark” movie? > [@](#): > > \*\* > I went to Catholic schools from kindergartertn through high school, and I can tell you that I NEVER heard of 5 of those “important” hoaxes. I’d heard of the Shroud of Turin, of course, but it was only mentioned once or twice as an interesting artifact, never as a major article of faith or even as “proof” of the existence of Jesus. \*\* Maybe that’s because the Catholic Church tends to be pretty smart about these things? > [@](#): > > \*\* I can’t see why it’s “important” to debunk it, or how the recent Carbon 14 tests (which show it’s only about 600 years old, not 2000 years old) undermines CHristianity in any way. \*\* Relax, Astorian, no one is trying to undermine Christianity. We’re trying to promote the truth. The Shroud is indeed an important hoax (although far from the most important on the list) because plenty of people still believe it and still point to it as proof of Christianity, even though it’s false. Vanilla and dre2xl have hit the nail on the head: the “Satanic Panic” is a very important hoax to debunk. In fact, I wonder if I should make the entire tract be about the Panic alone. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/35 "2003-03-24T17:38:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > What’s the animal with the long horns that stick straight out of the sides of its head, but are all twisty? I’m thinking of having Satan be the narrator of the comic, and those would be cool horns for him to have. (But in order to do it, I need a photo reference.) You may be interested in the [goat pentagram](http://www.caterpillar.org.uk/warning/btn70.gif), an image occasionally used by Black Sabbath. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/36 "2003-03-24T18:10:56Z")
So- where’s the debate? I don’t even see a “Ok, So-so” debate, let alone a “Great debate”. 😃 Sure, there are some fringe loonies- the point is- no one outside their little group beleives them anyway. Let them tell their little bedtime stories amoung themselves- who does it hurt? Does the fact we read "fairy tales’ to our children at bedtime make us guilty of “spreading a hoax”? So- who are they “hoaxing”? Did our OP believe his list at first, and then found out the truth later? I don’t know him, but it is doubtful he was that much of a Naif. So- who has been “hoaxed”? In order to have a “hoax” we have to have dudes that would otherwise not believe accept a story. So- who has been taken in by these “hoaxes”? Yes, there is one on the list that others than the fringies belive in, and has caused hurt- the “Satanist conspiracy”. Now sure, there are “satanists”, and I guess that it is not impossible that somewhere along the line some deluded lunatic did murder a child “in the name of Satan”. After all there is Charles Manson. But the beleif that there is some large scale kidnapping and/or of children by “Satanists” seems to be balderdash. However- why is this a “Christian” hoax? You don’t have to beleive in God or Jesus to beleive in “Satanists”, and in fact since I lived in Bakersfield during the begining of the whole McMartin preschool thing, it seems that out of control conspiracy nuts in a postion of power in Law enforcement- WHO DO NOT PROFESS TO BE CHRISTIAN- are spreading this dangerous “hoax” (which I think is a bad term for this, as I look upon a "hoax’ as something mostly harmless, and maybe even fun. This a dangerous lie, not a “hoax”). Not a “Christian hoax”- just a dangerous lie spread by conspiracy nuts. Then we have the “Shroud”. The mainstream of Christianity know & accept this was a “pious fraud”. So- if some want to beleive- who are they hurting? Let them. I know some dudes that want to beleive in Fairies- they aren’t hurting me- so why not? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/37 "2003-03-24T18:30:58Z")
You don’t think faith healers and creationists are hurting people? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/38 "2003-03-24T18:53:37Z")
Faith healers? Some of them do, to the extent that some dudes who are treatable turn to them and fail to get a cure, which is available through modern medicine. However, some faith healing does work. Some faith healers treat only those who are untreatable. But not all faith healers are Christian, there are faith healers in every major faith, and many more outside any mainstream “religion”, such as simple quacks, “new agers”, and “gypsy seers”. So- while “faith healing” can be a "hoax’, it is certainly not a “Christian hoax”, since it has been around since the first Shaman put on his first antlers and did his dance. So “hoax”? Mainly. “Harmful?” Sometimes. “Christian”? Not exclusively or mainly. And also “creationists” are not limited to Christians. Right here I have seen several Orthodox Jews profess their belief in a 7 day Creation. Many Muslims believe the same. In fact, nearly every major religion has a “creation myth”, and also “fundies” that accept that myth whole cloth- the American Indians have one, etc. However, by & large, these are all harmless, they are “fooling” no one but themselves. Nor were these two “hoaxes” on your list. Calling these two commonly held beliefs of most major Faiths= “Christian hoaxes” is disingenuous at best, and at worst a “hoax” of your own. They are more a matter of “belief & faith” than a “hoax”, and in any case are not limited by any means to just Christianity. Really not “kosher” to list a “belief” held by every major faith since the begining of religions, and call them a “Christian Hoax”. :j ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/39 "2003-03-24T19:07:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*Bear in mind that I’m explicitly interested in hoaxes and frauds. Near-Death experiences don’t count, because that’s just debunking a mistake. \*\* I know this is a bit of a hijack, but can you provide some clarification? Are you implying that the NDEr _didn’t_ die, I mean, what do you mean by ‘mistake’? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582/40 "2003-03-24T19:43:27Z")
I mean that they have (IMO) misinterpreted the NDE as a trip to heaven, when it can be explained in scientific terms instead. I wasn’t really trying to make an issue of NDE’s- I just wanted to make it clear that this isn’t about debunking popular Christian misconceptions so much as exposing deliberate hoaxes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-important-christian-hoaxes/163582.md?page=3)