# Most impressive franchise from the most mediocre beginning **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies, star-trek-paramount\ **Created:** [June 2, 2024, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401 "2024-06-02T00:39:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2024, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/61 "2024-06-02T16:52:49Z")
_The Black Adder_ is generally considered the weakest series in the _Blackadder_ franchise. _Parks and Recreation_’s first season is almost unrecognizable compared to what the series would become. _It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia_ took a few seasons to hit its stride, helped in no small part by the addition of Danny Devito to the cast. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2024, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/62 "2024-06-02T17:03:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It was after that the franchise slid into profitable mediocrity. But its beginnings were not at all humble. Of course, if you ignore the real world time line and consider Episode 1 to be the first film, you could make a case for a mediocre start leading to great things. > [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > _The Black Adder_ is generally considered the weakest series in the _Blackadder_ franchise. Agreed, and I would argue Blackadder Goes Forth is the best of the bunch. I’d ignore the one-off specials that came after, though some were OK. Good example, though of course nothing like the reach of some of the others. ---
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2024, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/63 "2024-06-02T17:05:29Z")
What a cool entry! I recently read the PR Chronicles and they did not expect the series to last beyond issue 30 or so but by now have sold something like 2 billion booklets. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2024, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/64 "2024-06-02T21:12:58Z")
For my money, the best Bond movie is _ **From Russia with Love** _, hands down. _ **Dr No** _ was okay as an icebreaker, and _ **Goldfinger** _ was over-the-top fun. But the thing I _dislike_ about all subsequent movies in the franchise is that they end with an army of “helpers” coming in to take out the bad guys: Navy Frogmen, Ninjas, the Mafia, the Space Marines, and so on. This weakens the character of Bond while being downright ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2024, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/65 "2024-06-02T21:41:59Z")
How about Superman? One 13-page story in an anthology [comic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Comics_1) with a dozen other stories featuring other characters, but somehow that story (built out of a rejected set of strips, itself adapted from a SF story published in a fanzine) stuck around for 90 years and counting. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2024, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/66 "2024-06-02T22:15:20Z")
Bozo the Clown went from [a storytelling album in 1946](https://i.etsystatic.com/8624570/r/il/9a8d2a/5775281658/il_570xN.5775281658_3nic.jpg) to [a local kiddie show in many major markets,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bozo_the_Clown#Local_TV_Bozos) not to mention [the huge one in Chicago.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bozo_Show) ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2024, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/67 "2024-06-02T22:18:38Z")
Yeah, I had no idea where Bozo came from. Thought the show made him up. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Dropo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Dropo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dropo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2024, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/68 "2024-06-02T23:10:28Z")
> **[Screenshot :: Mod idea Bob Kane's original drawing of Batman](https://www.nexusmods.com/batmanarkhamknight/images/679)** Traced or otherwise swiped from a _Flash Gordon_ panel by Alex Raymond, this is (a recreation of) Bob Kane’s original vision of The Bat-Man…which was rejected by DC Comics. Thanks to writer Bill Finger and others, from these mediocre, plagiarized beginnings came Batman, a multi-media franchise character generating billions in revenue glorifying the world’s greatest ~~detective~~ fascist vigilante. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2024, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/69 "2024-06-03T11:12:19Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > But the thing I _dislike_ about all subsequent movies in the franchise is that they end with an army of “helpers” coming in to take out the bad guys: Navy Frogmen, Ninjas, the Mafia, the Space Marines, and so on. This weakens the character of Bond while being downright ludicrous. I guess I can see how it’d weaken the character of Bond, if you view him as someone who can “take out the bad guys” single-handed — but how is it downright ludicrous for him to instead have that help arrive? That seems like a decidedly _less_ ludicrous approach to his work; why _not_ learn what you can, in hopes of relaying it to people who (a) already have “take out the bad guys” resources, as well as the desire, but who (b) merely lack “take out the bad guys” info? Sure, he’ll punch above his weight if he winds up in a situation where people are trying to fight him — but shouldn’t that be, like, Plan B? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2024, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/70 "2024-06-03T11:16:21Z")
Airborne frogmen, an army of Ninjas, helicopters full of Mafiosi, and Space Marines don’t sound ludicrous to you? ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2024, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/71 "2024-06-03T11:17:46Z")
As a child in the UK I already had a Lego set in 1966; a whole city, with a road map and everything. The idea of playsets based on TV and movie franchises was far in the future, however. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2024, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/72 "2024-06-03T11:26:01Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Airborne frogmen, an army of Ninjas, helicopters full of Mafiosi, and Space Marines don’t sound ludicrous to you I’m not sure I follow; like, isn’t Bond _already_ playing airborne frogman in that scenario? If we’re already granting that it’s a useful thing for him to do right about then, then why not call in more like-minded guys who can do likewise? If we grant that he’s willing and able to play ninja or be helicoptered in with a gun in his hand or whatever, then why not send more guys like that if you’ve got more guys like that? If we’re already doing a movie where he’s doing his thing in outer space, why wouldn’t other people follow suit? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2024, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/73 "2024-06-03T11:26:27Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Airborne frogmen, an army of Ninjas, helicopters full of Mafiosi, and Space Marines don’t sound ludicrous to you? - Jennifer Juniper riding a dappled mare is what puts it over the top. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2024, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/74 "2024-06-03T11:40:26Z")
In _ **Dr No** _, he sabotaged a nuclear reactor singlehanded, in _ **From Russia, with Love** _, he blew the bad guys out of the sky and the water without any help, and the GIs in _ **Goldfinger** _ were already stationed at Fort Knox. The only reason for sending in armies of “helpers” (and I use the term in the same derisive sense that Nick Adams did in _ **No Time for Sergeants** _) is to make each subsequent movie more over-the-top than its immediate predecessor. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2024, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/75 "2024-06-03T12:13:32Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > and from 1987 until around 1996 the only Star Wars merchandise that was readily available was whatever West End Games was making for their _Star Wars_ table top RPG. 26 Star Wars books were published from 1991 to 1995. > **[List of novels by release date](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_novels_by_release_date)** > > The following is a list of Star Wars novels by release date: Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope – November 12 Splinter of the Mind's Eye – February 12 Han Solo at Stars' End – April 1 Han Solo's Revenge – October 12 Star Wars Episode V: The Empire... ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2024, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/76 "2024-06-03T12:56:13Z")
Not a fan myself, and other than longevity, I’m not sure how impressive the franchise is, but I understand Dr. Who came from rather modest beginnings. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2024, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/77 "2024-06-03T13:02:20Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > 26 Star Wars books were published from 1991 to 1995. I completely forgot about the novels. Which is weird because I read a lot of them. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2024, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/78 "2024-06-03T13:13:56Z")
_Seinfeld_, widely regarded as the best sitcom ever produced, had modest beginnings. The pilot episode was first shown in July 1989, and it came second in the ratings to a police show called _Jake and the Fatman_. I kid you not. It was next shown in the following summer, when the six episodes of the first season were shown. It wasn’t a regular prime time shown until season 2, and the first season with a full 20 plus episodes was season 3. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2024, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/79 "2024-06-03T13:23:02Z")
I actually watched Seinfeld when it was new and remember the few ads for it quite well. I had no idea it would turn into a megahit. Widely regarded as the best sitcom? Perhaps as _one_ of the best and in the conversation for best, but not as the best with certainty. But totally a good candidate for something that rose from mediocre beginnings. Not really a franchise, but all of its actors achieved great fame and went on to other projects with varying degrees of success. I saw that even Michael Richards, who famously bombed out with some n-word rant in his comedy routine, has a book out soon that I bet does well. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2024, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401/80 "2024-06-03T13:36:48Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > and it came second in the ratings to a police show called _Jake and the Fatman_. I kid you not. In 1989 JatFM would have been in it’s 3rd season out of five. It isn’t like it was some obscure show at the time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-impressive-franchise-from-the-most-mediocre-beginning/1002401.md?page=5)