# Most Iraqis support attacking American troops **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506 "2008-02-28T14:43:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2008, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/41 "2008-02-28T23:48:54Z")
I don’t think a Sunni/Shia clash is inevitable at all. Most sectarian conflicts are borne of a sense of real oppression and hopelessness. If a middle class can rise in Iraq, and the standard of living of all can be improved, the Iraqi people will have a lot to lose in a civil war. If an equitable oil deal can be reached that brings money to everyone, and a federalist system developed that gives each region enough autonomy to believe that they can manage their own affairs while still benefiting from living in a greater Iraq, I think Iraq can come back from the brink. This is what the surge is hoping to accomplish. The federal government in Iraq sucks, so the military’s strategy has been to rebuild a civil society from the bottom up and empower local governments. So far, that seems to be working. Economic activity in Iraq is booming. New businesses are starting up every day. People who fled the country are coming back. Shops are re-opening. And better yet, local leaders are starting to reach out to other groups and form economic and security alliances that expand the scope of peaceful areas. This in turn will hopefully cause the people at the grassroots level to put more pressure on higher-level politicians to get their collective acts together. This also is happening, and a number of the original benchmarks for reconciliation have now been met and more are being negotiated. The longer the U.S. can keep Iraq from blowing apart, the greater the likelihood that it will find a way to glue itself back together again. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2008, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/42 "2008-02-28T23:56:48Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] This is what the surge is hoping to accomplish. The federal government in Iraq sucks, so the military’s strategy has been to rebuild a civil society from the bottom up and empower local governments. So far, that seems to be working. Economic activity in Iraq is booming. New businesses are starting up every day. People who fled the country are coming back. Shops are re-opening. And better yet, local leaders are starting to reach out to other groups and form economic and security alliances that expand the scope of peaceful areas. [/QUOTE] The economy is “booming”? What is the unemployment rate in Iraq, **Sam**? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2008, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/43 "2008-02-28T23:57:29Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] The longer the U.S. can keep Iraq from blowing apart, the greater the likelihood that it will find a way to glue itself back together again. [/QUOTE] Or possibly, the longer the US prevents the explosion, the greater the pressure will build, with resultant inevitable explosion being even bigger, and recovery even more prolonged and misery-filled. It could go a lot of ways, but I have yet to see good evidence that we’re benefitting the Iraqis in the long run with our presence. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/44 "2008-02-29T00:01:48Z")
Maybe… Myself I think that while the surge has worked fairly well on the military side (hell, it’s worked a lot better than I thought it would), that it’s only the threat of that overwhelming force that is holding things together as much as it is that is keeping the country from flying apart, and folks like Sadr from renewing his own ambitions and sending his private army back into the field. Once we start stepping those force levels down (and we WILL have to do that at some point…sooner rather than later as our logistics and force structure are already strained to near the limit and I don’t see anyone else surging along with us) I think we’ll shortly be back to the way it was last year. I hope I’m wrong…but after this effort I’m ready to start bringing the troops home if it DOES seem to be flying apart and going back to the way it was a year ago. This, to me, is the last shot…if we start bringing our force levels back down later this year and things revert then it’s time for us to call it a day, acknowledge that we fucked it up and can’t fix it, and bring the troops home. I feel bad for the Iraqi’s…but to a degree they are also responsible for the renewed chaos if they don’t take this opportunity to try and keep things from flying apart. ETA: This was in response to Sam Stone’s post. -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/45 "2008-02-29T00:03:00Z")
Things are so much better. Electricity a couple hours a day, the plumbing is blown apart and waste is everywhere. There are walls separating the neighborhoods. The educated have fled the country. We have bombed the shit out of the infrastructure and the beautiful buildings than were once there. People are living in fear. That is what we have done. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/46 "2008-02-29T00:05:06Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] The economy is “booming”? What is the unemployment rate in Iraq, **Sam**? [/QUOTE] How is that relevant to whether the economy is now starting to take off? [url=[http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=ia&ID=IA42308](http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=ia&ID=IA42308)]The Iraqi Economy: From Shocks to Take-off? [/quote] > [@](#): > > According to the IMF, the Iraqi economy is projected to grow at 7% in 2008 after a somewhat anemic growth in 2007. > > Second, foreign currency reserves are rising and so is the Iraqi legal tender, the dinar, which now trades at about 1,200 to the dollar, after trading at 2,000 or more dinars to the dollar before the invasion. More importantly, it is a convertible currency. The central bank auctions dollars regularly to meet market demand without any restriction. > > Third, oil production is increasing. Oil export has recently reached the pre-invasion level of 1.8 million barrels per day, and the ministry of oil forecasts an export level of 2.0-2.1 million b/d by the end of the year. Subsidy on oil products, other than kerosene, used for cooking and lighting, has been abolished. Private fuel imports have been liberalized, and many of the long lines for gasoline are gone. Efforts are under way to expand and upgrade existing refineries in Iraq, which will ensure fuel supplies to power broad economic growth. > > Fourth, inflation has been brought under control, thanks to the tightening of monetary policy and the appreciation of the dinar-along with the maintenance of fiscal discipline and measures to reduce fuel shortages. > > Conclusion > > This is by no means a complete picture, but it is a picture that gives rise to a restrained optimism. If violence continues to recede, and if the political leaders in Iraq resolve their sectarian disagreements in a practical, if not necessarily amicable, way, there is a good chance that the Iraqi economy will begin to reach its potential which, by all reckoning, is quite considerable. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/47 "2008-02-29T00:09:51Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] If an equitable oil deal can be reached that brings money to everyone [/quote] Which pretty much requires getting rid of us. [QUOTE=Sam Stone] The longer the U.S. can keep Iraq from blowing apart, the greater the likelihood that it will find a way to glue itself back together again. [/QUOTE] First, Iraq is already “blown apart”. That’s what we did. And second, it can’t even start to put itself together again, so long as we are there. Any Iraqi government that exists under our occupation is collaborationist, and will have no respect, no legitimacy, and no power beyond what we enforce for it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/48 "2008-02-29T00:11:53Z")
Here’s a farirly in-depth and what looks to me, balanced report on the state of Iraqi political affairs: [Inside Iraqi Politics](http://www.longwarjournal.org/feature/insideiraqipolitics.php) It’s a mixed review, showing progress and roadblocks. But overall, the message is cautiously optimistic. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/49 "2008-02-29T00:12:35Z")
I wouldn’t call that booming. And your cite didn’t give any stats about the unemployment rate. The latest estimates are 25-40%. Look at [page 40 of this PDF file](http://www.brookings.edu/saban/~/media/Files/Centers/Saban/Iraq%20Index/index20080131.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/50 "2008-02-29T00:15:03Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] The people of the United States wanted to kick some towel head ass, and the Congress of the United States was entirely invertebrate on the issue. We got ourselves a war that has no possible conditions that even political spin makers can define as a victory, or even not a despicable exercise in political cowardice. We got it because we, the people of the United States, and our steadfast Allies wanted it. [/QUOTE] Sorry to further the hijack, but there were a _lot_ of us Americans (and even more amongst our now-reluctant allies) who though going into Iraq would be a colossal cock-up. As a US citizen, I accept that “we” did indeed go in, but I’d like it to be known among my own country and the rest of the world that many of “us” did not support this at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/51 "2008-02-29T00:24:37Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I wouldn’t call that booming. And your cite didn’t give any stats about the unemployment rate. The latest estimates are 25-40%. Look at [page 40 of this PDF file](http://www.brookings.edu/saban/~/media/Files/Centers/Saban/Iraq%20Index/index20080131.pdf). [/QUOTE] But I didn’t claim _anything_ about the unemployment rate. You’re the one that injected that into the debate. I’m aware that the unemployment rate is high. The question is whether it’s growing or falling. If it’s growing, it’s a good sign because it means more people will become vested in the continued good health of the Iraq economy. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/52 "2008-02-29T01:32:56Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] But I didn’t claim _anything_ about the unemployment rate. You’re the one that injected that into the debate. I’m aware that the unemployment rate is high. The question is whether it’s growing or falling. If it’s growing, it’s a good sign because it means more people will become vested in the continued good health of the Iraq economy. [/QUOTE] You said: > [@](#): > > Economic activity in Iraq is booming. Growth is good, of course. But I don’t think “booming” is close to being accurate, one reason being the unusually high unemployment rate. Employment is very much a part of “economic activity”. No? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/53 "2008-02-29T01:57:58Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Here’s a farirly in-depth and what looks to me, balanced report on the state of Iraqi political affairs: [Inside Iraqi Politics](http://www.longwarjournal.org/feature/insideiraqipolitics.php) It’s a mixed review, showing progress and roadblocks. But overall, the message is cautiously optimistic. [/QUOTE] Well, **Sam** , you know how folks can be, sometimes. You present this wholly unbiased research, fair and balanced, you know, some folks are gonna be suspicious, quick to catch the scent of agenda. This _Long War Journal_, for instance. (For the _lumpendopers_, the Long War is equivalent to the War on Terror, apparently…) Its mission statement is the very embodiment of civil sanctimony, they are four-square and unshakeable in defense of liberty and democracy. Certainly nothing wrong with that! Heavens, I’m all for liberty and democracy! Lets have a show of hands, who here hates liberty and democracy? I’m just about convinced of their golden _bona fides_. Who can we thank for this marvelous effort? Well, for starters, a Mr. Bob Roggio, editor: “…His articles have been published in _The Weekly Standard, The National Review, The New York Post, The Toronto Times,_ and _Die Weltwoche_…” Hmmm. Yes. \* Standard, National Review\*. The very paragons of agenda-free information. Yeppers. That’s them. “…an Adjunct Fellow at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies…” Splendid fellow! The Foundation for the Defense of Democracies! Here he is exposed to the cross-currents of modern non-partisan theoreticians, the likes of Jeane Kirkpatrick, Jack Kemp, Steve Forbes and Mr. Newt Gingrich. Newt. Gingrich. Of course, you knew all this, yes, **Sam**? So you will understand, won’t you, if I suspect these celebrated experts might bear a faint odor of agenda? Kind of like week-old roadkill smells like dead? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/54 "2008-02-29T02:06:57Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] But I didn’t claim _anything_ about the unemployment rate. You’re the one that injected that into the debate. I’m aware that the unemployment rate is high. The question is whether it’s growing or falling. If it’s growing, it’s a good sign because it means more people will become vested in the continued good health of the Iraq economy. [/QUOTE] I believe this a mistranslation from Canadian into English. I’m pretty sure you mean a growing _employment_ rate is a good thing. Not a growing _unemployment_ rate. Advise. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/55 "2008-02-29T02:13:49Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] It’s true that many areas of Baghdad have become sunni-only or shiite-only, but violence is down in ALL areas, including the ones that still have a strong mix of Sunni and Shiite people. The violence that is still occuring is coming from many sources - criminals, warlords fighting warlords, reprisal killings, and the like. Some of it is Sunni against Sunni, and Shiite against Shiite. [/QUOTE] I don’t doubt that the violence comes from many sources, as you say. I’d like to see you back up your statement that violence is down in ALL areas. The same fate awaits Iraq whether the U.S. exit happens in one year or ten. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/56 "2008-02-29T02:37:41Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Most sectarian conflicts are borne of a sense of real oppression and hopelessness. [/QUOTE] What do you think was happening in Iraq before we invaded? Ever considered Iraq’s history? Or middle-east history? How about colonialism? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/57 "2008-02-29T03:00:24Z")
[http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=41284](http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=41284) Unemployment 60 to 70 percent. Before we went in over half the university students were women. Women had jobs and could wear western style clothes. We fixed that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Them](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/898d66/32.png) [@The\_Them](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Them)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/58 "2008-02-29T04:21:04Z")
**John Mace** got it right, I think. He’s not the first. Years ago, in _Atlantic, Harper’s?_ a writer pointed out that if the Iraqis _need_ to fight it out, they will. As a comparison, the writer asked what would have happened if the European powers had intervened in our own Civil War. This comes off as so cold-blooded, I should be taken in front of a firing squad. And I stand by this notion: the best we can do is get out of the way. I express helpless pity for the victims. The American soldiers CAN be saved. By withdrawing. Every night, on the news, there’s another funeral for some local sap who got offed in Iraq. What do I have against _them?_ Them being my neighbors would suit me much better. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/59 "2008-02-29T05:31:46Z")
I quite honestly blame Rumsfeld in part for this debacle. He overrode almost _every_ commander’s stance as to the amount of boots on the ground required to invade, capture, hold, rebuild Iraq. The surge was a weak-handed attempt to rectify what should have been done in the first place. Shinseki was a learned military man, and got replaced when he didn’t agree with “El Supremo’s” (Rumsfeld’s) perception of how many troops were needed to accomplish the goal. There were estimates as high as 400,000 troops needed to accomplish the mission _en toto_. But, 100,000 were committed. Yes, the invasionary force was a spectacular success in terms of our military versus theirs, but we shoould have foreseen their military’s unwillingness to fight us in the open battlefield and instead melt into the civilian population and instead fight us in unconventional ways. The lack of foresight of this administration in terms of it’s committment to this war is it’s biggest failing, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Them](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/898d66/32.png) [@The\_Them](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Them)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506/60 "2008-02-29T05:37:38Z")
**John Mace** got it right, I think. He’s not the first. Years ago, in _Atlantic, Harper’s?_ a writer pointed out that if the Iraqis _need_ to fight it out, they will. As a comparison, the writer asked what would have happened if the European powers had intervened in our own Civil War. This comes off as so cold-blooded, I should be taken in front of a firing squad. And I stand by this notion: the best we can do is get out of the way. I express helpless pity for the victims. The American soldiers CAN be saved. By withdrawing. Every night, on the news, there’s another funeral for some local sap who got offed in Iraq. What do I have against _them?_ Them being my neighbors would suit me much better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-iraqis-support-attacking-american-troops/439506.md?page=2)