# Most oppressed people in the world? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794 "2003-10-11T03:28:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/21 "2003-10-11T11:54:24Z")
\*\*Don’t forget the Burmese. The Chechnyans got royally fucked. And as adaher says, the Saudis, especially the women. Though I would dispute the Chinese being on the list. The government is a bitch if you cross it, and there’s a lot of repression and state-sponsored going on, but it’s nowhere near as bad as a lot of other dictatorships. \*\* Well, I’m going by Freedom House ratings and Amnesty International reports, and China ranks pretty high. Oops, forgot Iran, but it looks like they might finally be coming out of the dark. **What is your timeframe for quick? If it is to be anything like the German experience, and I suspect it will be worse, it will drain the South’s economy and have social repercussions for decades at the most optimistic.** Full integration would take decades. I was mainly referring to the situation being under control, which would be within months of Kim’s toppling. It’s not like Iraq and Afghanistan. It would be much simpler. Just let South Korea govern it pretty much immediately and handle security. After total defeat I doubt the Communists would be nearly as fanatical as the Islamists. It would probably be a total collapse and the security situation would be fairly easy. \*\*Anyway, I’d like to offer up Aceh and West Papua. Their people are subject to the usual TNI and police atrocities but they have the additional slap in the face of hosting American companies like Freeport and Exxon. So when the Indonesian government call GAM and OPM terrorists, obfuscation and whitewashing from Western governments give such claims the appearance of credibility. \*\* I’m not well informed on this, so could someone answer a couple of questions? 1. Isn’t the Aceh revolt about trying to set up an Islamist theocracy in the area? And isn’t Indonesia democratic, if not exactly liberal yet? 2. Although American companies still do business and participate in atrocities, didn’t Clinton end military support for the Indonesian government? ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/22 "2003-10-11T12:56:48Z")
\*\*Isn’t the Aceh revolt about trying to set up an Islamist theocracy in the area? And isn’t Indonesia democratic, if not exactly liberal yet?[/B ]The Acehnese want to revert to a sultanate but more importantly, they want an end to the rapes, ethnic cleansing and massacres. Their best best bet in achieving these ends is in doing away with Jakarta based rule altogether. Their movement isn’t fired by any kind of zealous Islamic fundamentalism. SE Asian Islam traditionally hasn’t been about that. However, the TNI (army) backed militias are the new breed and they _are_ Islamist. They are more or less the same people who pillaged East Timor, West Papua and rattling sabres at the West now. Jemaah Islamiyah have al Qaeda, TNI and goverment connections… and the fuckwits in your administration are indirectly helping them! They still don’t understand that you need to see both sides of Megawati’s face when she speaks. **Although American companies still do business and participate in atrocities, didn’t Clinton end military support for the Indonesian government?** Well never completely and he soon eased those restrictions with Bush then continuing and increasing the pace of normalisation regarding military aid. [http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:GDLCa8jp4EIJ:www.intl-crisis-group.org/projects/asia/indonesia/reports/A400658\_21052002.pdf](http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:GDLCa8jp4EIJ:www.intl-crisis-group.org/projects/asia/indonesia/reports/A400658_21052002.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/23 "2003-10-11T12:58:13Z")
Sorry about the coding. How’s _that_ for an atrocity? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/24 "2003-10-11T13:06:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, North Koreans are constantly trying to escape, so I would say they know they are oppressed. The New Yorker ran a very interesting piece on Kim Jong Il and North Korea a few months back, I wish I could quote it here. But they say that people who get out of NK to China are often deeply shocked when they find out how different the situation in the country really is from what the government has told them. People do try to escape, so perhaps some know- but they’d still get my vote to be the most oppressed. I wouldn’t want to go to China or Iran either, but there seems to be some hope for those countries for one reason or another. Seems like the best thing that can happen to North Korea is things get so bad that the regime collapses, which would surely not be any fun. ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/25 "2003-10-11T13:15:29Z")
OK one more time… [http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:GDLCa8jp4EIJ:www.intl-crisis-group.org/projects/asia/indonesia/reports/A400658\_21052002.pdf&hl=en&ie=UTF-8](http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:GDLCa8jp4EIJ:www.intl-crisis-group.org/projects/asia/indonesia/reports/A400658_21052002.pdf&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/26 "2003-10-11T14:12:21Z")
Just trying to help **Gest** out here: [RESUMING U.S.-INDONESIA MILITARY TIES](http://www.intl-crisis-group.org/projects/asia/indonesia/reports/A400658_21052002.pdf) (warning, .PDF) That’s the link that **Gest** is trying to provide. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/27 "2003-10-11T14:26:02Z")
Oppressed by governments, though there are many oppressive regimes in the middle-east, only the Kurdish people treatment by Turkey is comparable with the Israeli treatment of Palestinians. The Russian treatment of the Chechychans also has strong paralells with the above two cases. North Korea is probably the worse with possibly millions of people of dying of starvation there. Probably the worst place to live currently would be in the Congo were currently violence simlair to that which was seen in neighbouring Rwanda during the genocide there, though most of the violence is being carried out by factions commanded by warlords and split along ethnic lines. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/28 "2003-10-11T14:32:11Z")
Checyna is worth at least a second place… those Russian troops are running roughsod all over the place raping and bullying all over. North Koreans are certainly “oppressed” by govt and famine. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/29 "2003-10-11T14:59:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > Youth. > > They are universally disenfranchised and have no say in their government. They can legally be over-ridden in their decisions about such fundamental things as their own health. In many places where abortion is perfectly legal, a youth can be forced to carry an unwanted child to term- a decision with lifelong consequences. They cannot enter into contracts, be outside after nine at night (or whenever curfew is) or even legally enjoy something as fundamental as sex with another person. > > I’m pretty serious here. While I don’t think children should have the same rights as adults, you have to admit they (especially teenagers) get pretty shafted. Added to that is a culture that treats them as a mix of a pet and a criminal, and you have one pretty opressed group. Second that. I guess it depends on what qualifications you use. Does the number of people in said group matter? Are you considering the world as a whole or a specific group within one country? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/30 "2003-10-11T15:10:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Actually, if you ask any liberal, the USA is the most oppressive country in the world. \*\* Get that off a bumper sticker, **Dogface**? When you have an _informed_ opinion, come back. :rolleyes: The trouble with the question is that both “oppressed” and “people” are not clearly enough defined. How does long term economic or political oppression compare to long term physical oppression? By “people” do we mean religious, ethnical or nationalistic groupings? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/31 "2003-10-11T23:14:43Z")
For oppressed nationalities, I’d nominate the Kurds, who have been taking it on the ear a lot longer than the Chechens. The Iraqi Kurds are no longer oppressed, or at least they think they’re not (see the website of the Kurdistan Regional Government [http://www.krg.org/](http://www.krg.org/)), but the Turkish and Iranian Kurds still get stomped on by their governments whenever they start talking about independence or autonomy. Other obvious choices are the Tibetans and the Inner Mongolians (honestly!). I would add the Manchurians, but their territory has been so heavily colonized by Han-Chinese since WWII that it is probably meaningless to talk of a Manchurian nationality as even existing any more. For a comprehensive list of national minorites with perceived grievances, see the “Sedition and Exile Groups” page of the Micronation and Sovereignty Website Index, [http://www.angelfire.com/nv/micronations/exile.html](http://www.angelfire.com/nv/micronations/exile.html). Some examples there are pitiable, and some are surprising (did you know some Shi’ite Arabs in southwestern Iran want to secede and form an independent “Arabistan” or “Khuzestan”?), and some are just plain amusing (the Kingdom of Frisland, Rockall Island!). I notice nobody has mentioned any of the surviving American Indian nations. Perhaps you all think these are not “oppressed” because they get to live as house minorities in a free republic? I would be inclined to agree with that, actually, but some Indians don’t see it that way. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/32 "2003-10-11T23:45:15Z")
Posted by **adaher:** > [@](#): > > Liberals don’t consider the US to be the enemy because their agenda is liberal democracy. Leftists have an entirely different agenda and there is no greater impediment to it than liberal democracy. > > How to spot a leftist? THere are some liberals and conservatives alike who have legitimate criticism of US and Israeli policies. Leftists go a bit further. They oppose Taiwan, hate the Cuban exile community, love Hugo Chavez and applaud him in his efforts to stop the recall vote, and don’t want to talk about the Iranian dissidents. Speaking as a member of the Socialist Party and of the Democratic Socialists of America, I must tell you this characterization is at least partly confused. Except for actual Marxist-Leninist revolutionaries, who are extremely rare even on the left, most leftists of my acquaintance think liberal democracy could be their best friend, if only it were a bit more liberal and a bit more democratic. Read Daniel Lazare’s _The Frozen Republic._ His thesis is that the U.S. Constitution is an impediment to the implementation of socialism because it isn’t democratic **enough.** (I think he’s being too optimistic about what the left’s prospects would be in a genuine national majoritarian democracy, but that’s another discussion.) As for specifics, I have nothing against the Taiwanese and I don’t know any leftist who does. Most of us would be tickled pink [rimshot] to see the Communist regime on the mainland go down, and we would not want to see China take over Taiwan unless that happened first. I **do** hate the Cuban exile community, but that’s just because they’re such assholes. If they would only shut up, we could normalize relations with Cuba, open the door to trade, and hasten the end of its Marxist-Leninist regime. Why can’t they see that? Iranian dissidents were profiled in depth, very sympathetically, in a recent issue of _The Nation,_ and I think I recall some pieces on them in recent broadcasts of _Democracy Now_ or the Pacifica Network News, not sure which. I didn’t know Hugo Chavez was involved in efforts to stop the California recall, but if he was, more power to him; the recall was a stupid idea. Chavez is an entirely admirable person otherwise, in his history as a labor organizer. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/33 "2003-10-12T02:33:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rashak Mani \* > hhmm… do people in North Korea even know they are oppressed ? Totalitarian states tend to indoctrinate a lot. So a person is not oppressed if he/she doesn’t know he/she is oppressed? Uh-uh. > [@](#): > > Gays in the bible belt ? You know I was talking to this gay Texan the other day and he was telling me how he was trying to get a visa to live in North Korea to escape the oppression he experienced in “the bible belt”.:rolleyes: I hope you were kidding with that one… ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/34 "2003-10-12T04:20:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > **Youth.** While I agree with everything you say about the oppression of youth, I think I’d rather be a teenager in America than a peasant in North Korea… although I suspect the U.S. will liberate the North Korean peasants before its own youth. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/35 "2003-10-12T04:38:55Z")
About the Chechens: Russia gave them autonomy, but Islamist freaks started bombing Russian targets, forcing them to intervene to stop the terrorism. Sound familiar? I think it’s time to stop blaming the victim. It seems to be fashionable nowadays to automatically consider the stronger party the aggressor and the weaker party the victim. That’s not always the case. If the stronger party was attacked first and is still fighting with one hand tied behind it’s back while the smaller foe uses all means possible to attack, the stronger foe is the victim. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/36 "2003-10-12T07:11:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > \*\*Youth. > I’m pretty serious here. While I don’t think children should have the same rights as adults, you have to admit they (especially teenagers) get pretty shafted. Added to that is a culture that treats them as a mix of a pet and a criminal, and you have one pretty opressed group. \*\* OK, someone has to say this. This is silly. I understand what you are saying, I used to feel similarly when I was a teenager. And I do understand that some teenagers are completely capable of making good decisions. However, to suggest that as a class they are opressed _“To keep down by severe and unjust use of force or authority”_ goes too far. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/37 "2003-10-12T12:01:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\*About the Chechens: Russia gave them autonomy, but Islamist freaks started bombing Russian targets, forcing them to intervene to stop the terrorism. Sound familiar? I think it’s time to stop blaming the victim. It seems to be fashionable nowadays to automatically consider the stronger party the aggressor and the weaker party the victim. That’s not always the case. If the stronger party was attacked first and is still fighting with one hand tied behind it’s back while the smaller foe uses all means possible to attack, the stronger foe is the victim. \*\* Idoicy **Adaher** , the rise of islamic extremism in Chechenya was entirely preciptated by the actions of the Russian troops there, prior to this the Chechens were not noted for being a particularly religious people. I think it’s time YOU stopped blaming the victims. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/38 "2003-10-12T12:05:50Z")
I don’t deny that the original Russian intervention led to a rise in Islamic extremism. But the Russians withdrew and Chechnya had what they wanted. It was over. Then terrorists started slaughtering Russians and it all started again. The war was over, the Islamic extremists fired the first shots in the new war. Russia was the aggressor the first time, no doubt, but they are now the victim. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/39 "2003-10-12T12:15:55Z")
The invasion of Chechnya was prompted in 1999 by terrorist bombings that killed 217 Russians, plus the invasion of Dagestan. Chechnya initiated the second war. Russia is the victim. Even the first war was preceded by a wave of kidnappings and violence against Russians. Now a common defense is that the Chechnyan government wasn’t responsible. Well, tough cookies. If you can’t prevent such things from happening, you don’t deserve independence and the victim nation has the right to intervene to restore order so they can live in peace. [http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/chechnya/timeline8.html](http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/chechnya/timeline8.html) ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/40 "2003-10-12T12:26:51Z")
And of course you ignore everything that happened before 1999. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794.md?page=3)