# Most oppressed people in the world? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794 "2003-10-11T03:28:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/61 "2003-10-13T07:16:25Z")
One could probably argue that Native Americans have been and in many ways still are the most oppressed people in the world. As I see it, historically… most displaced indigenous natives are typically treated as sub-human. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/62 "2003-10-13T07:20:16Z")
I agree with you on all but the last part DSeid. When a human rights crisis is going on, we should not wait for the wankers of the world like France and Russia to throw a wrench in the works. When it’s a situation where every day waiting means hundreds dead, there is no excuse for waiting except to make preparations to do it right. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/63 "2003-10-13T09:13:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > When a human rights crisis is going on, we should not wait for the wankers of the world like France and Russia to throw a wrench in the works. When it’s a situation where every day waiting means hundreds dead, there is no excuse for waiting except to make preparations to do it right. It’s tedious to read this kind of thing over and over, **Adaher** , stuff like the above proclamation as well as the outrageously simplistic “view” of Chechnya you espoused earlier. Since a lack of rebuttals to criticisms suggests you admit to ignorance of the Chechnya situation, perhaps you can now begin work on that tendency to lecture on topics you display little understanding of. If by “wankers” above you are referring to the anti-war/better-evidence-is-required position of a sizeable portion of the planet (not just France and Russia as you imply) earlier this year, get ready to establish your arguments seriously rather than employing the hand-waving allegations of vague wrong-doing or human rights abuses that you have used so far. And read up on the discussions you’ve missed, because a lot of the same items come up again and again. For example, whether France was being a “wanker” was discussed starting _months_ ago a number of times, most clearly [in this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=179185&perpage=50&pagenumber=2). Link is to the second page where the France discussion properly begins. You can’t just allude vaguely to assertions that have been discredited numerous times on these boards, not without first addressing the question in better detail than a passing mention that takes your preferred answer for granted. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/64 "2003-10-13T09:23:46Z")
What I was referring to was French behavior during the first Gulf War, the Balkans crisis, Rwanda, and finally the current Iraq war. They were at best unhelpful, at worst obstructive. Russia especially was unhelpful during the Balkans crisis. Now, as for Chechnya, was there or was there not peace in 1998? Who broke that peace? If your position is that every Chechen action in the present and future is justified by the original Russian sin of the first war, then you are in essence supporting perpetual war, or at worst for Russia to just “take it”. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/65 "2003-10-13T11:43:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > What I was referring to was French behavior during the first Gulf War, the Balkans crisis, Rwanda, and finally the current Iraq war. They were at best unhelpful, at worst obstructive. Russia especially was unhelpful during the Balkans crisis. You are alluding to behaviour you consider objectionable, but I’ll need a bit more setup for your argument rather than more casual mentions. The Balkans crisis is a particularly poor example to pick, since it’s not clear that bombing the shit out of Serbia accomplished anything at all _except_ transferring the atrocities from Milosevic’s forces over to the KLA, that is it made common Serbs _in their own land_ the target of ethnic cleansing by terrorists and criminals who were effectively empowered by the actions of NATO (the KLA thought they were so successful that they went on to attempt a similar trick in Macedonia, part of their Greater Albania agenda). Maybe Russia was right to resist the insensate NATO attack, since it accomplished little and especially considering that the Serbian people eventually deposed Milosevic by themselves once they were able to start putting the pieces of the puzzle together. As for Chechnya, if I am not mistaken links have been provided for you. To assert that this issue began in 1999 is simply wrong, since (if nothing else) the issue of independence/autonomy had been simmering years before that – just like Kosovo. > [@](#): > > Now, as for Chechnya, was there or was there not peace in 1998? There wasn’t, unless you are referring to a rather short intermission in between the slaughter. The issue goes back to at least 1991, when the winner of a questionable election declared Chechnya independent. In 1994 Russia invaded Chechnya, but couldn’t overcome guerrilla opposition in the South – thousands died. In 1996 the rebels gave the Russians a thrashing and retook Grozny. After a peace accord, Russia agreed to withdraw and discuss independence in five years’ time. In 1999 a Chechen warlord tried invading a neighbouring state, and Russia also blamed Chechnya for a number of apartment bombings in Moscow: so Russia invaded once again and once again people died by the thousands. Like Kosovo and most of history, the situation is rather more complex than a single date or cut-off point. You seem to be arguing that human rights is a leading cause of foreign military intervention and the reason behind the wars of the US, which are obstinately opposed by the “wankers” France and Russia and whoever else thinks the plan of the day is a bad idea. Human rights usually have depressingly little to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/66 "2003-10-13T11:53:17Z")
\*\*In 1999 a Chechen warlord tried invading a neighbouring state, and Russia also blamed Chechnya for a number of apartment bombings in Moscow: so Russia invaded once again and once again people died by the thousands. Like Kosovo and most of history, the situation is rather more complex than a single date or cut-off point. \*\* Sure it is, but as I have maintained, the peace was broken by Chechnyan terrorists and Russia had the right of self-defense. Sure, the issue is complex. But once things settle down and there is peace both sides have an obligation to keep it that way. The Chechens failed to keep their end of the bargain. ---
**Author:** ![bbart4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/51bf81/32.png) [@bbart4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbart4)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/67 "2003-10-13T12:02:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > Now, as for Chechnya, was there or was there not peace in 1998? Who broke that peace? This is truly a disingenous question. Was there not peace in Tito’s Yugoslavia? Even if one were to try to answer your question, Chechnya had been pretty much unstable leading up to 1999 anyway. But the point is you can’t just pick a year and use it as a starting point without at least trying to understand the context. > [@](#): > > If your position is that every Chechen action in the present and future is justified by the original Russian sin of the first war, then you are in essence supporting perpetual war, or at worst for Russia to just “take it”. If your position is that every Russian action in the present and future is justified by the Chechen 1999 “sin”, then you are in essence supporting perpetual war, or at worst for Chechnya to just “take it”. See, this is pretty much a meaningless argument… ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/68 "2003-10-14T02:35:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pervert \* > **The number itself does not matter too much. It has to be drawn somewhere. The alternative is some sort of means test whereby you prove you are able to handle your affairs before you are allowed to.** Exactly. Such a test has never been tried, AFAIK, precisely because so many people believe “You have to draw a line somewhere.” > [@](#): > > **You can’t be arguing that all 13 year olds are sufficiently educated to vote?** Who says they all need to be “sufficiently educated” in order to have a say in their government? We don’t impose that restriction on anyone else, as long as they’ve reached a certain age. > [@](#): > > \*\*I’ll agree that we do not do the best possible job of preparing our youth for adulthood, but to suggest that they are oppressed (in the same sense that christians are in china for instance) because they cannot vote at 13 is just silly. \*\* Suppose a city had a law that said no Christians were allowed to go outside between 8 PM and 6 AM. The law was justified on the grounds that Christians were more likely to commit crimes, so it was better for everyone’s safety that they stay inside at night. The law passed, of course, because it just so happens that Christians aren’t allowed to vote. Wouldn’t you consider that oppression? What you’re doing is justifying the oppression. You can come up with reasons why it might make sense to strip a group of their rights, but the fact remains that they _are_ stripped of those rights. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/69 "2003-10-14T18:06:58Z")
Perhaps we need a unique thread for a full discussion of this. But for now, I’ll make a couple more points then let you have the last say. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr2001 \* > \*\*Such a test has never been tried, AFAIK, precisely because so many people believe “You have to draw a line somewhere.” > \*\* Well, you do. Do you let non citezens vote? Animals? Dead people? Infants? Fetuses? The phrase simply means that you have to define what a voter is. Using an age is much simpler and more egalitarian than any other possible system. It is not perfect, but neither is it arbitrary. > [@](#): > > \*\* > What you’re doing is justifying the oppression. You can come up with reasons why it might make sense to strip a group of their rights, but the fact remains that they _are_ stripped of those rights. \*\* No, I am suggesting reasons why these realities might not rise to the definition of oppression. When I looked it up in a couple dictionaries I found that all of them included things like “unjust” or “unreasonable”. Can you explain why it would be reasonable to for infants to vote? OK, that’s all for this hijack. I’ll give you the last say. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/70 "2003-10-15T10:44:03Z")
I would also add that even in the countries where they cannot vote, youth can receive benefits from social programs, which is a big plus. In the US, public education is essentially free, for example. While they’re denied the right to vote in this country, there are also laws protecting their rights. And I can’t say they’re exploited these days the way a lot of the other people listed in this thread are. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/71 "2003-10-15T11:41:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pervert \* > **Do you let non citezens vote? Animals? Dead people? Infants? Fetuses?** Of course not… animals, dead people, and fetuses aren’t bound by the law, and it wouldn’t be hard to concoct a means test that excluded infants. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Marley23_ > **I would also add that even in the countries where they cannot vote, youth can receive benefits from social programs, which is a big plus. In the US, public education is essentially free, for example. While they’re denied the right to vote in this country, there are also laws protecting their rights.** One man’s protection is another man’s prison. The only free public education is the kind that kids are forced to attend, and it’s hard to call that a “big plus”. But that’s really a subject for another thread. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/72 "2003-10-15T11:54:14Z")
> [@](#): > > The only free public education is the kind that kids are forced to attend, and it’s hard to call that a “big plus”. No, I know. I’m 21 and find it weird that I’m defending public education to some extent. But I’ll go so far as to say even in a poor condition, it’s better to have it than not to have it. > [@](#): > > One man’s protection is another man’s prison. I’m not talking about protections like bans on buying porn, cigarettes and alcohol. I’m talking about things like child labor laws. They’re a good thing. So are laws against exploiting and beating children. Unlike some laws that ostensibly protect oppressed people in other countries, these are actually enforced in the US and the West in general. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/73 "2003-10-15T12:52:36Z")
People, haven’t you been reading the SD message boards? As all liberals will tell you (the whole “liberal democracy” squeal is just a dodge), the USA is the most oppressive nation in the world. Our government is the most fascist and centralized in the world. Our president is an absolute dictator and anybody who even THINKS of disagreeing with him is publically executed, right? Am I right? Just ask all those liberal “experts” on US politics who hang out on the SD boards. The USA is the most oppressive nation on earth. There are no human rights, whatsoever, here, not at all. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/74 "2003-10-15T14:07:10Z")
Dogface is apparently one of those posters who has to completely misrepresent those who disagree with her or him in order to have any point at all. I am a liberal. I lived in the United States where there are an abundance of human rights so precious they require constant safe-guarding. We are not perfect and there are always concerned citizens on all sides of the political spectrum working to make it better. [/that particular hijack] As of about twenty years ago, a public school education was worth about $100,000 over the lifetime of the graduate. I don’t know what that figure is now. [/end another hijack] > [@](#): > > **Even Sven** : What class cannot vote, anywhere? People who live under dictatorships. Lots of women. > [@](#): > > What class does not have the integrity of their body, health, and sexuality? Which class can (in some places) be married off, indentured to work, deprived of money they have worked for, restricted from movement, banned in many places, not allowed to buy many things, hit, sent to private prison camps for commiting no crimes- with no judge and no jury (that happens in the US), and otherwise made to suffer indignities and lacking in self-determination. Islam women. And most U.S. teenagers don’t have to wear burkas to school. Most U.S. teens have their own beds to sleep in, plenty of electricity, hot baths and food on the table. Child labor laws protect most from exploitation in the workplace. _Some_ teenagers are oppressed. These are physically, mentally, emotionally or sexually abused. Many, many teens have a hard time struggling through their adolescence years. That does not mean they are oppressed. Look, we’ve all been adolescents. It _is_ tough. But try to give it a little perspective in light of what is going on in the rest of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/75 "2003-10-15T16:18:42Z")
**Dogface** , next time, try reading the thread. You’ll see no liberal has posted any such thing. ---
**Author:** ![xanadu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c4cdca/32.png) [@xanadu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanadu)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/76 "2003-10-16T05:47:04Z")
[WAL-MART WORKERS!!!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=216614) heeheehee:D ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/77 "2003-10-16T22:44:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > \*\ ***Dogface** , next time, try reading the thread. You’ll see no liberal has posted any such thing. \*\* Is this the only thread in all of the SD? I’ve seen the USA ripped up and down all sides by liberals. It’s obvious that they are of the opinion that the US is the most evil place in the world and the origin of all evil. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/78 "2003-10-16T22:58:06Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve seen the USA ripped up and down all sides by liberals. It’s obvious that they are of the opinion that the US is the most evil place in the world and the origin of all evil. Yes, because that’s the only possible conclusion to criticizing the United States. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/79 "2003-10-17T01:21:44Z")
Posted by **Dogface:** > [@](#): > > I’ve seen the USA ripped up and down all sides by liberals. It’s obvious that they are of the opinion that the US is the most evil place in the world and the origin of all evil. _Sigh._ No, **Dogface.** Some radicals and “revolutionaries” in the '60s and '70s used to talk that way. I suppose a few still do, but that kind of thinking has mostly passed from the scene. Right now, for instance, the three most popular (and funny) radical books on the stands are _Thieves in High Places,_ by Jim Hightower; _Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them,_ by Al Franken; and _Dude, Who Stole My Country?_ by Michael Moore. These books justly excoriate the Bush administration, Republicans and conservatives generally, and the corporate ruling class; but I defy you to find one paragraph in any of them that could be construed as characterizing the United States as “the most evil place in the world and the origin of all evil.” As Franken put it in _L&TLLWTT:_ > [@](#): > > If you listen to a lot of conservatives, they’ll tell you that the difference between them and us is that conservatives love America and liberals hate America. That we “blame America first.” That we’re suspicious of patriotism and always think our country’s in the wrong. As conservative radio and TV personality Sean Hannity says, we liberals “train our children to criticize America, not celebrate it.” > > They don’t get it. We love America just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love America the way a four-year-old loves her Mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a four-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticized Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow. Love takes attention and work and is the best thing in the world. > > That’s why we liberals want America to do the right thing. We know America is the hope of the world, and we love it and want it to do well. We also want it to do good. > > When liberals look back on history, we see thing’s we’re very proud of. And we also see some things, which might have seemed like good ideas at the time, but turned out to be mistakes. And some things we did, well, they were just bad. That doesn’t keep us from loving our country – it’s _part_ of loving our country. It’s called honesty. What do you think is more important to a loving relationship: honesty or lies? > > * * * > > Salem with trials – **bad** > > Revolutionary War – **good** > > Slavery – **bad** > > Ending slavery – **good, but hard** > > Civil War reenactments – **weird** > > Massacring Native Americans and breaking our treaties with them – **bad** > > Indian casinos – **?** > > Child labor during the Industrial Revolution – **bad** > > Child labor mowing lawns and baby-sitting – **character-building** > > Labor movement creating the weekend – **good** > > Land grand universities – **hot** > > Rural electrification – **hotter** > > Social Security – **hottest!** > > Dictating pop culture for the world – **mixed** > > Selling Saddam Hussein chemical weapons, in the eighties – **in retrospect, bad** > > Louisiana Purchase – **bargain** > > Grand Canyon – **wonderful, though we really can’t take much credit for it – no, wait:** > > National park system – **really good** > > Leading human genome project – **probably good** > > Genetically engineering super race of unstoppable killers – **bad, but probably inevitable** > > Winning World War II – **wow!!** > > Creating democracy in postwar Germany and Japan; laying groundwork for European peace and prosperity in second half of twentieth century – **right on!** > > The Greatest Generation – **greatest!** > > _The Greatest Generation_ – **bestseller** > > Liberty – **good** > > Justice for all – **would be nice** > > Bill of Rights – **great! but Second Amendment could have been clearer** > > Putting man on the moon – **awesome, if true** > > Supporting vile dictatorships in Iran, Indonesia, Iraq, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, Congo, Paraguay, Haiti, El Salvador, Bolivia – **bad** > > Parades – **wholesome fun for the whole family** > > Gay parades – **exuberant expressions of individuality often featuring highly imaginative floats and costumes** > > Conducting horrific medical experiments on African-Americans in Tuskegee – **bad** > > Japanese internment camps – **good. Wait, what were these?** > > Truman Doctrine – **smart** > > Vietnam – **mistake** > > Winning Cold War – **credit all around, to postwar Republican and Democratic presidents alike** > > Gross human rights violations in name of winning Cold War – **credit all around, except to Jimmy Carter** > > Women getting the vote – **good . . . _for women!_ Just kidding. It’s good for everybody!!!** > > African-Americans getting the vote – **good . . . _for African-Americans!_ Kidding again. Good for Democrats!** > > Making mistakes – **bad, but inevitable** > > Correcting mistakes – **good, but not inevitable** > > Calling those who point out mistakes “unpatriotic” – **itself unpatriotic** > > Owning up to our mistakes – **brave** > > America – **home of the brave** ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794/80 "2003-10-17T21:26:43Z")
Youth aren’t really comparable with peoples and nations of the world, because membership is temporary. You don’t stay “youth” for ever. Given that we have all been “youth”, the fact that there are still laws to protect and nurture “youth” - including such things as education, not being allowed to drink and smoke at the age of seven, etc etc etc - suggests that the situation of “youth” is not really an oppressive one. Any more than “parents” are an oppressed class because they are forced to care for “youth”. “Youth” have plenty of rights, they just don’t have all the rights of full-grown adults. But they have some rights that full-grown adults don’t have (at least in certain countries) - the rights to greater protection under sex crimes laws, rights to free food, health, housing and clothing, and many other things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-oppressed-people-in-the-world/206794.md?page=5)