# Most people want "equal treatment," but disagree on what that means. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202 "2015-12-11T21:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/21 "2015-12-12T04:10:53Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Such a handicap is a necessary part of equal opportunity. > > (Yes, I know. I’ve read Vonnegut’s “Harrison Bergeron.” Anything can be carried too far.) > > (Also, I believe that sex-linked physiological differences are among the only inequalities we cannot correct for by social handicaps. That’s why women and men have separate Olympics. But when it comes to college enrollment or success in business and politics, I believe in corrective handicaps…because I believe that inequality in results demonstrates an existing punitive handicap in the first place.) In this universe the brain is a physical organ. And different humans have objectively different brains. It does society no good to cripple or hinder those with superior minds to make those with below average minds feel better. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/22 "2015-12-12T04:13:38Z")
Well, so much for Obama’s Lobotomize all the Smart People legislation. Glad you guys are on it. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/23 "2015-12-12T04:24:53Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Agreement. I’ve heard the argument for years: “You don’t want equality of opportunity, you want equality of results.” And my answer is: Yes, exactly so. Without equality of results, how can I believe there ever actually was equality of opportunity?. There are more black players than white players in the NBA. Does this mean white athletes don’t have fair opportunity? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/24 "2015-12-12T04:33:35Z")
Do you think black players are selected over more qualified white players? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/25 "2015-12-12T04:46:01Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Do you think black players are selected over more qualified white players? Of course not. That’s my point; equal opportunity typically will NOT lead to equal results. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/26 "2015-12-12T04:49:24Z")
There are no pens in my desk drawer. Ergo, there ARE NO PENS. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/27 "2015-12-12T04:50:07Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Of course not. That’s my point; equal opportunity typically will NOT lead to equal results. I don’t believe that, but will admit it’s a matter of faith. If the results are unequal, that tells me there is a bias built in to the system one place or another. It doesn’t have to be a malign bias. Black youths are more interested in basketball than white youths. That’s a social bias, and is reflected in NBA stats. But some bias is hellishly malign, such as high-school drop-out rates broken down by ethnicity and race. That’s terrifying, and poisonous to an entire generation. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/28 "2015-12-12T06:24:07Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > (Also, I believe that sex-linked physiological differences are among the only inequalities we cannot correct for by social handicaps. That’s why women and men have separate Olympics. But when it comes to college enrollment or success in business and politics, I believe in corrective handicaps…because I believe that inequality in results demonstrates an existing punitive handicap in the first place.) One of the weird differences between men and women is that the standard deviation on IQ for men is larger then is is for women so we should expect more men in the lowest intelligence positions (jail) and in the highest (ceo if were dreaming). I’d be curious how people would take unequal results based on intelegence spread? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/29 "2015-12-12T07:47:02Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I don’t believe that, but will admit it’s a matter of faith. If the results are unequal, that tells me there is a bias built in to the system one place or another. > > It doesn’t have to be a malign bias. Black youths are more interested in basketball than white youths. That’s a social bias, and is reflected in NBA stats. > > But some bias is hellishly malign, such as high-school drop-out rates broken down by ethnicity and race. That’s terrifying, and poisonous to an entire generation. Superior performance in athletics is quite often due to superior genetics. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/30 "2015-12-12T07:50:06Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > One of the weird differences between men and women is that the standard deviation on IQ for men is larger then is is for women so we should expect more men in the lowest intelligence positions (jail) and in the highest (ceo if were dreaming). I’d be curious how people would take unequal results based on intelegence spread? Ignoring reality for political reasons is common with regards to human biology. The left would have the world believe that physics, biology, and chemistry do not apply to humanity. Will trumps nature even though will is nothing more than a manifestation created by a natural construct. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/31 "2015-12-12T07:55:36Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > The third school argues “if these are professional basketball players we’re talking about, who make lots and lots of money, I bet they’re probably in favor of a flat tax,” but that school is a bunch of class clowns. And yet another version would chop the taller one’s legs off so he’s as short as the other one. There’s a difference between equality and uniformity: that’s what many people don’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/32 "2015-12-13T15:04:23Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I don’t believe that, but will admit it’s a matter of faith. If the results are unequal, that tells me there is a bias built in to the system one place or another. Let’s use this example then: Suppose a high school announces that all students are welcome to try out for the football team (equal opportunity.) This doesn’t mean everyone has equal likelihood of making the roster. Those who are strong, fast, and athletic are far more likely to make the roster than those who are weak, in poor shape or have no experience with football. That means unequal result. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/33 "2015-12-13T18:27:51Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > What’s the difference in the real world? > > If a student is admitted into college with lower grades because they have had lower opportunities, isn’t that about evening outcomes. Or does excluding a student with higher grades from attending college somehow compensate for her having more opportunities? > > And how do you measure “opportunity”? Who has had more opportunities: > > A short, black, bisexual female child of an atheistic, devoted single mother who earns $45, 000 a years. > A tall, asthmatic, white child of competent married fundamentalist Christian parents who earn $90, 000 a year. > A left-handed, Brown child of average height with myopia raised by neglectful Pakistani Muslim parents who earn $200, 000 a year. > > How the heck would you even begin to determine which of those people has had more opportunities? > > This is one of the biggest problems with affirmative action. It assumes that every member of whatever group we are striving to target has had less opportunities. As a result we inevitably end up removing opportunities from disadvantaged members of other groups and increasing opportunities for already privileged members of the target group. I don’t support affirmative action on grounds of ‘equality of opportunity’, ‘disadvantage’ or anything else. I support it on the grounds that racially segregated educational environments are bad for society, even if they do reflect meritocracy, and that I’m fine with allowing in somewhat less qualified people to achieve racial balance. I also think equality of opportunity is mostly an incoherent concept, and I’m fine with striving some measure of (relative) equality of results, e.g. using the government to ensure income and wealth differences between the top tier of society and the lowest are fairly small. Other than that I agree entirely with your comments here. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/34 "2015-12-13T19:19:16Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Let’s use this example then: Suppose a high school announces that all students are welcome to try out for the football team (equal opportunity.) This doesn’t mean everyone has equal likelihood of making the roster. Those who are strong, fast, and athletic are far more likely to make the roster than those who are weak, in poor shape or have no experience with football. That means unequal result. Do you know what “equivocation” means, in terms of a fallacious argument? It basically means changing the meaning or implication of a word or phrase in the middle of an argument in order to distort or misrepresent. You have engaged in either a straightforward straw man or a blatant equivocation in very nearly every post in this thread. For example, this post. You begin your argument using the term “equal” clearly meaning the absence of bigotry - as in, Jews and African Americans are welcome to try out. You end your comment with “equal” meaning that people of lesser abilities will not make the team. There’s really only two responses to such a poorly thought out post - either you have no idea that you’re engaging in such an obviously bad line of reasoning; or you are subconsciously making some kind of association between the two meanings of equality, such that you are implying that certain races or creeds are less physically capable, therefore those types of people deserve to be cut from the team. So, which one is it? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/35 "2015-12-13T19:35:59Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Do you know what “equivocation” means, in terms of a fallacious argument? It basically means changing the meaning or implication of a word or phrase in the middle of an argument in order to distort or misrepresent. You have engaged in either a straightforward straw man or a blatant equivocation in very nearly every post in this thread. > > For example, this post. You begin your argument using the term “equal” clearly meaning the absence of bigotry - as in, Jews and African Americans are welcome to try out. You end your comment with “equal” meaning that people of lesser abilities will not make the team. > > There’s really only two responses to such a poorly thought out post - either you have no idea that you’re engaging in such an obviously bad line of reasoning; or you are subconsciously making some kind of association between the two meanings of equality, such that you are implying that certain races or creeds are less physically capable, therefore those types of people deserve to be cut from the team. > > So, which one is it? No matter how you twist the semantics, the facts as presented are indisputable: A school that invites everyone to try out for the football team will still most likely see strong and fast applicants prevail over weak and slow applicants. If you want to dispute that, then you are not seeking an honest debate. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/36 "2015-12-13T19:37:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Do you know what “equivocation” means, in terms of a fallacious argument? It basically means changing the meaning or implication of a word or phrase in the middle of an argument in order to distort or misrepresent. You have engaged in either a straightforward straw man or a blatant equivocation in very nearly every post in this thread. > > For example, this post. You begin your argument using the term “equal” clearly meaning the absence of bigotry - as in, Jews and African Americans are welcome to try out. \*\*You end your comment with “equal” meaning that people of lesser abilities will not make the team. \*\* > > There’s really only two responses to such a poorly thought out post - either you have no idea that you’re engaging in such an obviously bad line of reasoning; or you are subconsciously making some kind of association between the two meanings of equality, such that you are implying that certain races or creeds are less physically capable, therefore those types of people deserve to be cut from the team. > > So, which one is it? No, I said “unequal result”. Read again. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/37 "2015-12-13T19:50:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Do you know what “equivocation” means, in terms of a fallacious argument? It basically means changing the meaning or implication of a word or phrase in the middle of an argument in order to distort or misrepresent. You have engaged in either a straightforward straw man or a blatant equivocation in very nearly every post in this thread. > > For example, this post. You begin your argument using the term “equal” clearly meaning the absence of bigotry - as in, Jews and African Americans are welcome to try out. You end your comment with “equal” meaning that people of lesser abilities will not make the team. > > There’s really only two responses to such a poorly thought out post - either you have no idea that you’re engaging in such an obviously bad line of reasoning; or you are subconsciously making some kind of association between the two meanings of equality, such that you are implying that certain races or creeds are less physically capable, therefore those types of people deserve to be cut from the team. > > So, which one is it? I don’t see any fallacy here. He’s merely saying one sort of “equality” will not LEAD to the other: that equality in the form of “absence of bigotry” (anyone can try out for the team) will not lead to equality in the form of “equality of outcome” (the stronger, faster or more skilled will succeed). You may disagree that this argument has merit or meaning. One could, for example, point out that formal equality in the form of absence of bigotry could have less meaning, if bigotry in other aspects of life has lead in various ways to one group being inherently weaker, slower, or less skilled on average than they otherwise would have been: this is, as I understand it, basically the argument for affirmative action. But you haven’t actually identified a fallacy in his argument. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/38 "2015-12-13T20:55:12Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > No matter how you twist the semantics, the facts as presented are indisputable: A school that invites everyone to try out for the football team will still most likely see strong and fast applicants prevail over weak and slow applicants. If you want to dispute that, then you are not seeking an honest debate. On several occasions, you have attempted to tie race to ability in a less than blatant manner. In you OP, it doesn’t take a sociologist to understand that you’re using a short basketball player as a metaphor for groups of people that have experienced a long history of racial, religious, and/or sexual discrimination in this country. You’re implying, if not outright stating, that these types of people are less capable. If you want to have a real discussion of equal opportunity, why not drop the sports metaphors and talk about race? Sure, you’re comfortable saying that a slow person is going to make the track team, but why not simply cut out the literary devices and actually tell us what this means in terms of how you think opportunity works for white people as compared to black people these days? Just say what you mean and don’t beat around the bush. If you want to talk about sports tryouts, move this to the Game Room. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/39 "2015-12-13T21:18:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Let’s use this example then: Suppose a high school announces that all students are welcome to try out for the football team (equal opportunity.) This doesn’t mean everyone has equal likelihood of making the roster. Those who are strong, fast, and athletic are far more likely to make the roster than those who are weak, in poor shape or have no experience with football. That means unequal result. The fact that one guy is big, strong, and fast, and the next guy is small, weak, and clumsy means that they did not have “equal opportunity” to begin with. Their physiques gave them advantages and disadvantages. That’s how it is with athletics. Remember, I said that not all forms of discrimination are malign. In sports, it’s the price we pay for performance. Discrimination is malign when it is across boundaries not ascribed to nature, such as Hispanics dropping out of high school at a vastly higher rate than Anglos. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/40 "2015-12-13T21:31:24Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The fact that one guy is big, strong, and fast, and the next guy is small, weak, and clumsy means that they did not have “equal opportunity” to begin with. Their physiques gave them advantages and disadvantages. No, they did have equal opportunity - the school offered the invitation to everyone. Nobody was barred from applying. If the school said, “Jews are not allowed to try out,” then that would be indeed lack of equal opportunity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202.md?page=3)