# Most people want "equal treatment," but disagree on what that means. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202 "2015-12-11T21:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/41 "2015-12-13T22:16:40Z")
But there’s no logical connection between “Jews are allowed to try out” and “but only fast and strong people are going to make the team.” Unless you are implying that Jews have certain characteristics that relate to strength and speed… Are you? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/42 "2015-12-13T22:57:35Z")
A better analogy using the sports metaphor. The local high school invites all in-coming students to try out for the lacrosse team. However, only two of the five feeder middle schools offered lacrosse as a sport. The high school can compensate for the inequity of opportunity by judging the prospective players with no lacrosse experience by a slightly different rubric than the ones who have been playing since Heck was a pup. Sure, those players have more experience at the game, but that doesn’t mean they are necessarily good players. When an institution doesn’t mitigate inequity of opportunity, you get the same favored groups sitting in the same seats over and over again. The good ole boys (or girls) only want to recruit from other good ole boys (or girls). And we all _know_ this. We know this because most of have said at least once in our lives “It’s not what you know, but who you know.” We say it proudly almost, even though it is 100% incompatible with the notion that we’re a meritocracy. For there to be equal opportunity, someone along the line has to be brave enough to give the long shot a chance. Like the lacrosse coach who chooses the inexperienced player who is full of potential, while turning away the experienced fair-to-middling player. When there are no policies in place to ensure that this type of selection happens, you expect that inequality of opportunity will only get further entrenched. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/43 "2015-12-13T23:06:37Z")
Equal=/=identical in all cases. People have a horrible capacity for seeing only what others have that they don’t, and what they have to go through that others don’t. No subset of the population can be trusted to be objective. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/44 "2015-12-14T01:50:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > No, they did have equal opportunity - the school offered the invitation to everyone. Nobody was barred from applying. . . . But the selection was on the basis of physical attributes, and thus not equal. Your definition of “equal opportunity” is absurd; it would excuse Jim Crow laws. “Yes, everyone is entitled to come and register to vote. We’re just going to tear up the applications from black men. But they have equal opportunity, same as everybody else.” ETA: This all does, FWIW, give support to one of your OP ideas: we don’t agree on what the terms mean! ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/45 "2015-12-14T02:18:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But the selection was on the basis of physical attributes, and thus not equal. Every selection must be based on something. By your definition, there could never be equal opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/46 "2015-12-14T02:21:03Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I don’t support affirmative action on grounds of ‘equality of opportunity’, ‘disadvantage’ or anything else. I support it on the grounds that racially segregated educational environments are bad for society, even if they do reflect meritocracy, and that I’m fine with allowing in somewhat less qualified people to achieve racial balance. I also think equality of opportunity is mostly an incoherent concept, and I’m fine with striving some measure of (relative) equality of results, e.g. using the government to ensure income and wealth differences between the top tier of society and the lowest are fairly small. > > Other than that I agree entirely with your comments here. What if another person believes that racially segregated educational environments are good for society? The same constitution that supposedly allows your sort of racial discrimination would also allow for other sorts of racial discrimination. Brown v. Board of Education says it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/47 "2015-12-14T02:52:07Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But the selection was on the basis of physical attributes, and thus not equal. > > Your definition of “equal opportunity” is absurd; it would excuse Jim Crow laws. “Yes, everyone is entitled to come and register to vote. We’re just going to tear up the applications from black men. But they have equal opportunity, same as everybody else.” That’s a very, very different situation. A football team can only have a limited number of players (I.e., 53) on the roster. If one thousand students apply, the vast majority must be rejected. Voting, by contrast, isn’t exclusive in the sense that one voter being added to the rolls doesn’t mean someone else must be rejected. You can increase the number of registered voters. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/48 "2015-12-14T03:06:38Z")
I’m all for analogies like the OP, and I use them myself when discussing equality. But a few people here have mentioned taxation, and I think these analogies can be misleading in that situation, because they make a progressive tax seem unfair. But there are critical differences between wealth and, say, basketball skills. For one, everyone has basic needs (I’m talking food, warmth, shelter) and those basic needs are essentially the same. For two, the more money you have the easier it becomes to make money (note: easier not easy), simply because the more capital you have, the more investment possibilities you have. This is why a progressive tax may be considered fair…some redistribution of wealth allows everyone to get their basic needs and even invest a little in themselves e.g. studying, while trying to level the playing field a smidge. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/49 "2015-12-14T04:02:49Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Every selection must be based on something. By your definition, there could never be equal opportunity. That’s oversimplifying also, and equally absurd. The question is what we want to allow people to base selections upon. We (by and large) don’t want it based on race, religion, sexual orientation, sex, ethnic origin, etc. To say, “Only big guys can play football” does not excuse “We don’t let blacks vote in this state.” To equate the two is absurd and not a little offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/50 "2015-12-14T04:04:35Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That’s a very, very different situation. A football team can only have a limited number of players (I.e., 53) on the roster. If one thousand students apply, the vast majority must be rejected. > > Voting, by contrast, isn’t exclusive in the sense that one voter being added to the rolls doesn’t mean someone else must be rejected. You can increase the number of registered voters. Voting rights have been restricted, by skin color, in the past. I hope most of us agree that’s bad, and shouldn’t be allowed or repeated. (Voter registration laws, cough cough.) ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/51 "2015-12-14T06:11:28Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I don’t believe that, but will admit it’s a matter of faith. If the results are unequal, that tells me there is a bias built in to the system one place or another. > > It doesn’t have to be a malign bias. Black youths are more interested in basketball than white youths. That’s a social bias, and is reflected in NBA stats. > > But some bias is hellishly malign, such as high-school drop-out rates broken down by ethnicity and race. That’s terrifying, and poisonous to an entire generation. In basketball and other sports there comes a time when a kid just realizes others are just better than they are and no matter how hard they practice and work they put in, some other athlete will always beat them. Yes, often that athlete is black. So the best strategy often is just find another activity they can succeed in. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202/52 "2015-12-14T15:30:35Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The question is what we want to allow people to base selections upon. We (by and large) don’t want it based on race, religion, sexual orientation, sex, ethnic origin, etc. Correct, we don’t. Even if it leads to inequality of outcomes. If you are applying to a college, it shouldn’t matter if you are Asian, or Jewish, or black, or female, or whatever. We shouldn’t be basing our selection on criteria like that. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-people-want-equal-treatment-but-disagree-on-what-that-means/740202.md?page=2)