# Most Rapes Are About Power, Not Sex **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 5, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939 "2009-09-05T03:35:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cesario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Cesario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cesario)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/1 "2009-09-05T03:35:23Z")
This is a line I’ve heard often in many debates (and have even used it from time to time myself), but I’ve never actually seen the original source for this. It makes a good deal of inituitive sense to me, but the converse seems to have a lot of hold on the minds of many others. What is the origin of this idea, and is it borne out by the facts? ---
**Author:** ![CyclopticXander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@CyclopticXander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyclopticXander)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/2 "2009-09-05T04:01:35Z")
Yea it’s one of those common bits of conventional wisdom that really isn’t all that useful. Power is completely woven into human sexuality, why bother to completely separate the two? It’s not as if we enjoy sex as a scientific matter of organs rubbing together, we have fantasies and little roles in our heads that make things sexually exciting. So rapists get sexual thrills out of dominating the unwilling, I don’t understand the distinction to say that it is about power and not sex, it’s actually about sexual power. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/3 "2009-09-05T04:23:32Z")
There are different kinds of rape. What if some drunken college student is having sex with another drunken college student, and the next day she claims that she never gave consent because she was too drunk. That’s a type of rape, but it has nothing to do with power whatsoever. What if some guy who had been stranded on an island all alone for three years all of a sudden discovered a beautiful woman who had just washed up on the shore, grabbed her and raped her? Is that about power? I don’t think so. I think he was so horny that he just wanted to fuck a woman and he didn’t care whether she consented to it. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/4 "2009-09-05T04:54:35Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > There are different kinds of rape. What if some drunken college student is having sex with another drunken college student, and the next day she claims that she never gave consent because she was too drunk. That’s a type of rape, but it has nothing to do with power whatsoever. What if some guy who had been stranded on an island all alone for three years all of a sudden discovered a beautiful woman who had just washed up on the shore, grabbed her and raped her? Is that about power? I don’t think so. I think he was so horny that he just wanted to fuck a woman and he didn’t care whether she consented to it. It’s still rape if they were both that inebriated? I would think both college students could argue that the other raped them, thus negating the crime. Then again, as I hold drunk drivers responsible, I also hold drunk rapists responsible. If that’s something you’re likely to do, take reasonable precautions to prevent it from happening. (Not getting that drunk to begin with would be a good one, IMNSHO) As for the OP: well, the rape can be said to be about power is there is always an element of one person making the other person do what they want. With “regular” rape, it’s just about hurting the other person while getting a thrill of your own, not unlike most other crimes. With date rape, it’s about not letting the other person say no. With statutory rape, it’s about grooming the other person to think they want it. In the drunken scenario, it’s about one person knowing the other isn’t in a condition to refuse, and taking advantage of it. Granted, the law often overcompensates, calling something rape when it really isn’t. The easiest example is statutory rape when you didn’t know that the person was underage. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/5 "2009-09-05T05:00:52Z")
Is robbery “about power” or is it about getting money by any means necessary? It’s the latter. The same is true of rape, generally. It’s about getting sex, by any means necessary. It’s not “about” power any more than robbery or even burglary is “about” power. Power is the means, not the end. In some cases there may be a rapist who actually gets his sexual thrill from the specific act of dominating someone else against their will (maybe this the only way he can be turned on) - in that case it is “about” power. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/6 "2009-09-05T05:11:15Z")
Most rape occurs after, for instance, a guy has been dumped or turned down. He then gets mad and in a “well screw you, bitch!” moment…screws her. There just isn’t such a thing as a woman being so sexy that a man couldn’t help himself. Point in fact, probably most women who get raped aren’t all that good looking. I was just reading a report on runaway children who get pulled into prostitution by pimps. Girls who are good looking and/or confident tend to be the least likely to be propositioned by a pimp. It’s the girls who seem like natural prey who get preyed upon. This is most likely going to be similar in cases of rape. It’s the girl, where the guy in the back of his mind is thinking he can get away with this, who gets raped. So if it’s not sexiness, if the guy could get his rocks off perfectly easy with his hand, and he’s always in a depressed or angry state, then it’s not about sex so much as “showing that bitch up” or taking advantage of someone as a way to work off his own anger or frustrations. ---
**Author:** ![Cesario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Cesario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cesario)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/7 "2009-09-05T05:13:24Z")
I’m noticing a trend. There are a lot of people giving their gut reaction to the topic, but not a lot of people answering the actual question, which was more about the origin of the phrase and whether or not it is borne out by the facts (suggesting some sort of study or metaanalysis). Am I to presume that this means you don’t actually know the answers to the questions posed in the OP, or that I was unclear what I was asking? If it is the later, how would you suggest I clarify? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/8 "2009-09-05T06:00:04Z")
My response was based on what I have read in various studies. Whether that actually supports the specific phrase “It’s about power not sex” rather depends on your interpretation on what’s known. Who actually coined the phrase, I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/9 "2009-09-05T06:15:27Z")
> [@Cesario](#): > > What is the origin of this idea, and is it borne out by the facts? [Moderator note] I WOULD LIKE TO REQUEST THAT PEOPLE CONFINE THEMSELVES TO ANSWERING THE SPECIFIC QUESTION IN THE OP. We would like to find original studies or the original source of the quote. I don’t think that personal opinions on the issue are particularly useful in GQ. If you wish to discuss the issue in more general terms, please open a thread in GD. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/10 "2009-09-05T06:39:34Z")
Most people would cite: _Brownmiller, S. (1975). Against our will: Men, women and rape. Simon and Schuster: New York._ as the source. ---
**Author:** ![Claude\_Remains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@Claude\_Remains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claude_Remains)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/11 "2009-09-05T06:53:04Z")
> **[Rape: power, anger, and sexuality](https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.134.11.1239)** > > Accounts from both offenders and victims of what occurs during a rape suggest that issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape, but the proportion varies... ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/12 "2009-09-05T08:46:31Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Is robbery “about power” or is it about getting money by any means necessary? > > It’s the latter. > > The same is true of rape, generally. It’s about getting sex, by any means necessary. It’s not “about” power any more than robbery or even burglary is “about” power. Power is the means, not the end. > > In some cases there may be a rapist who actually gets his sexual thrill from the specific act of dominating someone else against their will (maybe this the only way he can be turned on) - in that case it is “about” power. ^This is about as good a formulation of the issue as I have seen. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/13 "2009-09-05T09:30:55Z")
Thank you. I am always encountering this theory, and I try to debunk it at every turn. I don’t know why but it is very annoying to me; it’s a real distortion of the truth. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/14 "2009-09-05T09:50:59Z")
> [@Cesario](#): > > This is a line I’ve heard often in many debates (and have even used it from time to time myself), but I’ve never actually seen the original source for this. Generically, the source is early-mid 70s Feminism. ---
**Author:** ![Claude\_Remains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@Claude\_Remains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claude_Remains)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/15 "2009-09-05T11:13:14Z")
You folks never heard of Dennis Raider (BTK) ? He masterbated on his victims post mortem but did not rape them. his trip was all about power. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/16 "2009-09-05T11:36:12Z")
I’d venture that the idea is reasonably widespread because many people (what I personally would call _normal_ people) don’t conceptualize the payoff from rape as sex, so while with robbery compared with legitimately earning money the payoff is of the same kind (money vs. money), with rape vs. consensual sex it is not of the same kind (mechanical stimulation vs. sex) ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/17 "2009-09-05T12:35:23Z")
The idea stems partly from the anecdotical evidence of rape victims reporting how their rapist had trouble getting or sustaining an erection during the assault. ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/18 "2009-09-05T15:47:51Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Thank you. I am always encountering this theory, and I try to debunk it at every turn. I don’t know why but it is very annoying to me; it’s a real distortion of the truth. Your sole expertise seems to come from being a young guy who is a bit concerned about being falsely accused of rape. I don’t see where that gives you any credibility to debunk anything. Have you ever met any rapists? Talked with them about their motives? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/19 "2009-09-05T16:28:30Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > There just isn’t such a thing as a woman being so sexy that a man couldn’t help himself. Point in fact, probably most women who get raped aren’t all that good looking. I think that’s the main point this phrase tries to adress. People who say or think that Rape is about sex very easily come to the conclusion that - only beautiful women are raped, thus they are safe, because they are homely and/or - that the women brought it onto themselves (wearing a too tight miniskirt, so the men, who simply are unable to controll their lust, couldn’t stop themselves, and all women should dress as nuns to not tempt men) If rape were a result of men not getting enough sex, then prostitutes would stop the need for rapes. But not all rapes happen because men are under pressure after three years on a desert island. To give a cite and not only my opinion: [Full article](http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/rape.asp) > [@snopes](#): > > If rapists choose their victims based on hairstyle and length of tresses, it’s news to those in law enforcement; they’ve never noticed this trend. Rape victims have short hair, long hair, and no hair. They’re also young and old, short and tall, fat and skinny, femininely dressed or looking like they just fell off the tractor, and all points in between. (snip) > > Rape is also not always about getting sex quickly. Often it’s an act of rage or punishment directed at a vulnerable person for perceived injustices done to the attacker by others. Getting a woman out of her clothes quickly isn’t a factor in these rapes; terrorizing her and inflicting bodily harm is. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939/20 "2009-09-05T16:35:55Z")
And the important part of the [Snopes article:](http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/rape.asp) > [@snopes](#): > > Around 1980, Nicholas Groth, director of Forensic Mental Health Associates, established a typology of rapists. Groth arrived at his conclusions by distilling his observations of more than 3,000 sex offenders over the course of 25 years of practice. (Most of his patients, Groth points out, were not sexually deprived at the time they committed rape, thereby exploding that most common of rape myths: that men rape because they’re unable to get sex any other way.) > > In a general sense, rapists fall into three motivational types: anger, power, and sadism. In anger assaults, the rapist is getting even for “some wrong he feels has been done to him, by life, by his victim at the time. He’s in a frame of rage and attacks someone sexually.” The anger rape is usually unpremeditated and impulsive, but the impulse drives the rapist into excessive force: the victim is punched, choked, and kicked into submission. Most such offenders derive little pleasure from the act, says Groth, but “they want to degrade their victims, and sex is something bad, dirty, the worst thing you could do to someone. That reflects a lot of our values in society.” > (snip) > > Power rape, according to Groth, is a form of compensation, committed usually by men who feel unsure of their competence. Rape gives them a sense of mastery and control. Power rapists usually hunt for victims or seize opportunities that present themselves unbidden. A power rapist is unlikely to be discouraged by resistance because his whole self image is wrapped up in his attempt to prove mastery. A woman who chooses to fight one of these had better do a darned good job of it, because she could well end up fighting for her life. > > Groth defines his third type, sadistic rape, as eroticized aggression perpetrated by those whom the very act of forcible sex excites in ways that consensual sex can’t. “If the anger components of aggression are eroticized,” he explains, “then you see sadistic acts, such as deliberate sexual torture, using an instrument to rape the victim.” A sadistic rapist is interested in inflicting pain and lasting harm. Any countering aggression on the part of the victim could well _add_ to the attacker’s enjoyment of the experience, prompting him to further acts of depravity in an effort to provoke further resistance. (I hope that quote isn’t too long to violate rules). The two sources given by snopes are: Gelman, David, et al.   “The Mind of the Rapist.” Newsweek. 23 July 1990 (p. 46) Martin, Claire. “Experts Question Widely Circulated Tips to Avoid Rape.” Denver Post. 7 March 2001. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-rapes-are-about-power-not-sex/508939.md?page=2)