# Most recent common ancestor of all living birds **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 15, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234 "2014-07-15T23:10:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/61 "2017-02-09T19:04:16Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Unless I’m missing something, true flight has evolved three separate times: insects, dinosaurs (obviously inclusive of birds), and bats. Flying fish don’t fly, but glide, and spiders balloon. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Pterosaurs aren’t dinosaurs, and evolved flight separately from them. So that’s 4. Flight seems to have evolved independently several times in dinosaurs, including the avian lineage and ones such as the bizarre four-winged [_Microraptor._](http://f.tqn.com/y/dinosaurs/1/S/w/-/-/-/microraptorgetty.jpg) > [@DrDeth](#): > > You dont. You dont give a fuck for phylogenetic taxonomy. You go by Linnean definitions and by common usage. Linneaus of course never defined dinosaurs. And he defined bats as primates, rhinoceroses as rodents, and lumped elephants together with sloths and anteaters. His class Amphibia included frogs, lizards, snakes, sharks, and lampreys. If he _had_ been aware of feathered dinosaurs, he undoubtedly would have classified them as birds. Trying to use “Linnaean taxonomy” will give you a lot of problems. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/62 "2017-02-09T19:16:50Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Okay, but what’s the basis for calling them dinosaurs? I’m not disagreeing that they are dinosaurs, I’m just asking how we know that. That they’re more closely related to T-Rex than T-Rex is to other dinosaurs doesn’t tell me that birds are dinosaurs. > > I’ve always wondered this but never wondered hard enough to actually ask. What else on this planet breaths like a bird? Only one thing that we know of, that is no longer on this planet. And the bird is not this thing, and this thing is not the bird, except they are the same. So perhaps, this thing, it never left. Did T-Rex become a bird? no T-Rex died, big top of the food chain things generally die, not adapt, Big anything generally dies, big things in general seem less suited for huge adaptation and survivability to rapid changes, and besides he was never a “BIRD” to begin with. But his little cousins, they didnt die. They are not him, but they are like him, but they are small and quick and nimble and quick to adapt and don’t require a lot of food or habitat to keep alive, they can survive long enough to make a few mechanical adaptations, they did not become “BIRDS” they always were them. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/63 "2017-02-09T19:26:15Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > If a clade Reptilia is recognized Probably someone should come up with some new names, and the word reptile has kind of become spoiled and prejudiced towards all things that are cold blooded, and crawl on slayed legs or on their belly and has become synonymous with lizard. The fact that while All lizards are indeed reptiles, all reptiles are Not lizards is lost on the majority. Then again so is the idea that Dinosaur is NOT Lizard. Strange people do so much better understanding mammals ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/64 "2017-02-09T19:27:57Z")
> [@Darwins\_Finch](#): > > Info which has, on numerous occasions since, been corroborated; Dinosauria is confirmed to be a monophyletic clade. Owen did make a lot of mistakes, but that wasn’t one. **DrDeth’s** taxonomic information tends to be at least several decades out of date. 😉 Bakker and Galton proposed dinosaur monophyly in 1974. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/65 "2017-02-09T19:30:43Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > What else on this planet breaths like a bird? Hitler? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/66 "2017-02-09T19:31:27Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > Probably someone should come up with some new names, and the word reptile has kind of become spoiled and prejudiced towards all things that are cold blooded, and crawl on slayed legs or on their belly and has become synonymous with lizard. There’s no real problem using the terms “reptile,” “bird,” and “fish” in ordinary conversation. People understand what you mean. It’s only when you start getting into more technical discussions like this one that you have to define your terms more carefully. > [@](#): > > The fact that while All lizards are indeed reptiles, all reptiles are Not lizards is lost on the majority. I don’t think anyone thinks that turtles or alligators are lizards. Oddly enough, however, snakes _are_ lizards, taxonomically speaking. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/67 "2017-02-09T19:35:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > For a certain definition of “dinosaur”. phylogenetic taxonomy. No, by \*every \*scientific definition and every \*informed \*lay one, even predating the popularity of cladistics. None of the early researchers considered them dinosaurs, nobody who knows anything does now either. Only the publishers of the shittier sort of “dinosaur” kiddie books and the makers of cheap plastic dinosaur toys call pterosaurs dinosaurs. But then, they also do that with _Dimetrodon_, so fuck 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/68 "2017-02-09T19:45:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _Toothlessness_ also shows up multiple times - in birds, in _Quetzalcoatlus_ and _Pteranodon_ pterosaurs, turtles… Some non-avian dinosaurs like ceratopsians, and some theraspid proto-mammals like _[Diictodon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diictodon)_ were part-way there, too. Also in mammals, which may be worth considering just to show that toothlessmess is not unusual per say, Anteater comes to mind ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/69 "2017-02-09T19:49:53Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > **DrDeth’s** taxonomic information tends to be at least several decades out of date. I recently read through an older thread where he [wasn’t willing to fully commit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19224166&postcount=60) to fish being animals. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/70 "2017-02-09T19:54:37Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I recently read through an older thread where he [wasn’t willing to fully commit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19224166&postcount=60) to fish being animals. Sometimes it’s millennia out of date.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/71 "2017-02-09T19:58:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > the makers of cheap plastic dinosaur toys call pterosaurs dinosaurs. But then, they also do that with _Dimetrodon_, so fuck 'em. Also other weird, nameless things. The ones I remembered well and googled to find are [this one](http://diterlizzi.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/HuggyDragons.jpg) and [this one](http://diterlizzi.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Bulettes.jpg), but I recognized [this one](http://diterlizzi.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/RustMonsters.jpg) when I saw it, too. (All links from [here](http://diterlizzi.com/home/owlbears-rust-monsters-and-bulettes-oh-my/).) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/72 "2017-02-09T19:59:24Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I recently read through an older thread where he [wasn’t willing to fully commit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19224166&postcount=60) to fish being animals. No, I said 300 years ago, they often were’t considered animals. “Define “animal” . Yes, Linnaeus defined Animal back in the 1700’s but in the OT and many other ancient writings “animal” does not include “fish”. So, for 4000 years, “fish” were not animals, but for 300 years they were- scientifically speaking.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/73 "2017-02-09T20:06:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, by \*every \*scientific definition and every \*informed \*lay one, even predating the popularity of cladistics. None of the early researchers considered them dinosaurs, nobody who knows anything does now either. > > Only the publishers of the shittier sort of “dinosaur” kiddie books and the makers of cheap plastic dinosaur toys call pterosaurs dinosaurs. But then, they also do that with _Dimetrodon_, so fuck 'em. > **[Definition of DINOSAUR](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dinosaur)** > > any of a group (Dinosauria) of extinct, often very large, carnivorous or herbivorous archosaurian reptiles that have the hind limbs extending directly beneath the body and include chiefly terrestrial, bipedal or quadrupedal ornithischians (such as... efinition of dinosaur 1 : any of a group (Dinosauria) of extinct often very large chiefly terrestrial carnivorous or herbivorous reptiles of the Mesozoic era 2 : any of various large extinct reptiles (as ichthyosaurs ) other than the true dinosaurs > **[dinosaur](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/dinosaur)** > > 1. a type of reptile that became extinct about 65,000,000 years ago. There were… dinosaur noun [C] US ​ /ˈdɑɪ·nəˌsɔr/ ​ a reptile (= cold-blooded animal), some types of which were extremely large, that stopped existing a very long time ago ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/74 "2017-02-09T20:16:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, I said 300 years ago, they often were’t considered animals. > > “Define “animal” . Yes, Linnaeus defined Animal back in the 1700’s but in the OT and many other ancient writings “animal” does not include “fish”. So, for 4000 years, “fish” were not animals, but for 300 years they were- scientifically speaking.” I’m going to ask for a cite for that. Are you saying there was a term that included all animals (from mammals to worms) but excluded fish? > [@DrDeth](#): > > [Dinosaur Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dinosaur) > > efinition of dinosaur > 1 > : any of a group (Dinosauria) of extinct often very large chiefly terrestrial carnivorous or herbivorous reptiles of the Mesozoic era > 2 > : any of various large extinct reptiles (as ichthyosaurs ) other than the true dinosaurs > > [DINOSAUR | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/dinosaur) > dinosaur > noun [C] US ​ /ˈdɑɪ·nəˌsɔr/ > ​ > a reptile (= cold-blooded animal), some types of which were extremely large, that stopped existing a very long time ago What’s your point? None of that contradicts what **MrDibble** said. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/75 "2017-02-09T20:34:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [Dinosaur Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dinosaur) > > efinition of dinosaur > 1 > : any of a group (Dinosauria) of extinct often very large chiefly terrestrial carnivorous or herbivorous reptiles of the Mesozoic era > 2 > : any of various large extinct reptiles (as ichthyosaurs ) other than the true dinosaurs > > [DINOSAUR | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/dinosaur) > dinosaur > noun [C] US ​ /ˈdɑɪ·nəˌsɔr/ > ​ > a reptile (= cold-blooded animal), some types of which were extremely large, that stopped existing a very long time ago That is why we don’t let dictionary editors teach science classes. There are lots of things wrong with those definitions even in popular terms. Two of the biggest are: 1. Not all dinosaurs (in the popular meaning) were large. Some were chicken or turkey size and there may have well been ones even smaller that haven’t been discovered yet. 2. There is evidence that at least some dinosaurs were [mesotherms](http://science.sciencemag.org/content/344/6189/1268) (partially warm-blooded and [many had feathers as well including the mighty T-Rex to help with their internal thermoregulation](http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/newly-discovered-fossils-hint-all-dinosaurs-had-feathers/)). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/76 "2017-02-09T20:47:21Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I’m going to ask for a cite for that. Are you saying there was a term that included all animals (from mammals to worms) but excluded fish? > . No, I never said that, I said in ancient times the word “animal” did not include “fish”. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/77 "2017-02-09T21:27:54Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I don’t think anyone thinks that turtles or alligators are lizards. To your average person with less than casual interest, which is probably 80 90 percent of the population? A dinosaur is a lizard, so is a snake, and a turtle is a shelled lizard, and a alligator is a big dangerous lizard from florida or austrailia. They understand mammals a lot better That isnt to say much, an Oppossum is still a nasty rodent to most, so is a raccoon RodenciaCarnivorus ? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/78 "2017-02-09T22:07:52Z")
On the evolution of flight question, I’ve also seen speculation that the two major lineages of bats might also have evolved flight separately, and that the most recent ancestor of all bats might have been a glider, not a true flyer. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/79 "2017-02-09T22:12:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [DINOSAUR | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/dinosaur) > dinosaur > noun [C] US ​ /ˈdɑɪ·nəˌsɔr/ > ​ > a reptile (= cold-blooded animal), some types of which were extremely large, that stopped existing a very long time ago Remind me never to attend Cambridge Chicken = Reptile Chicken also = Dinosaur remnant (right way to say it?) Chicken = very warm blooded, Endotherm Some types were very large? So are some types of Mammals, great blue whale? Some are also very very tiny ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/80 "2017-02-09T22:13:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [Dinosaur Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dinosaur) > > efinition of dinosaur > 1 > : any of a group (Dinosauria) of extinct often very large chiefly terrestrial carnivorous or herbivorous reptiles of the Mesozoic era > 2 > : any of various large extinct reptiles (as ichthyosaurs ) other than the true dinosaurs > > [DINOSAUR | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/dinosaur) > dinosaur > noun [C] US ​ /ˈdɑɪ·nəˌsɔr/ > ​ > a reptile (= cold-blooded animal), some types of which were extremely large, that stopped existing a very long time ago What I don’t see in either of those cites is any mention of pterosaurs at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234.md?page=5)