# Most recent common ancestor of all living birds **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 15, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234 "2014-07-15T23:10:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/101 "2017-02-11T01:39:26Z")
It’s so cute to see a thread where people ask random questions about Komodo Dragons, and someone doesn’t just exasperatedly link to [Komodo dragon - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komodo_dragon) Those were simpler times. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/102 "2017-02-11T07:30:58Z")
This discussion is fascinating, and I respect the passion, knowledge, and integrity of all involved. But I have to he honest, I’m just not going to spend the time to grasp all the subtleties. I’m telling my daughter that pterosaurs were flying dinosaurs, the fine distinctions are not worth worrying about, and if she someday proves me wrong in spectacular fashion I will have turned out to be a good parent in spite of myself. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/103 "2017-02-11T12:02:37Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > This discussion is fascinating, and I respect the passion, knowledge, and integrity of all involved. But I have to he honest, I’m just not going to spend the time to grasp all the subtleties. I’m telling my daughter that pterosaurs were flying dinosaurs, the fine distinctions are not worth worrying about, and if she someday proves me wrong in spectacular fashion I will have turned out to be a good parent in spite of myself. Teach the controversy! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/104 "2017-02-11T20:16:25Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > This discussion is fascinating, and I respect the passion, knowledge, and integrity of all involved. But I have to he honest, I’m just not going to spend the time to grasp all the subtleties. I’m telling my daughter that pterosaurs were flying dinosaurs, the fine distinctions are not worth worrying about, and if she someday proves me wrong in spectacular fashion I will have turned out to be a good parent in spite of myself. But why would you tell her that instead of the much more interesting fact that there were a lot of other interesting creatures around in the Mesozoic _besides_ dinosaurs? (And there _were_ - and are - flying dinosaurs, but they were birds, not pterosaurs). It’s also interesting that there were lots of aquatic reptiles that were not dinosaurs, including ichthyosaurs, plesiosaurs, and mososaurs - the last of which were gigantic swimming lizards (literally). ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/105 "2017-02-11T20:49:54Z")
I’m mostly kidding of course. And she knows that birds are dinosaurs, though in general ancient living creatures and their taxonomy don’t interest her a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/106 "2017-02-11T21:28:00Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > I’m mostly kidding of course. And she knows that birds are dinosaurs, though in general ancient living creatures and their taxonomy don’t interest her a lot. Wow, I’m so sorry. We will keep your family in our thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/107 "2017-02-13T07:37:36Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > But why would you tell her that instead of the much more interesting fact that there were a lot of other interesting creatures around in the Mesozoic _besides_ dinosaurs? (And there _were_ - and are - flying dinosaurs, but they were birds, not pterosaurs). It’s also interesting that there were lots of aquatic reptiles that were not dinosaurs, including ichthyosaurs, plesiosaurs, and mososaurs - the last of which were gigantic swimming lizards (literally). Screw the reptiles - the late Cretaceous was also the last hurrah of the ammonites. And [quite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapuzosia_bradyi) a [hurrah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapuzosia_seppenradensis) it was… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/108 "2017-02-13T14:27:31Z")
Am I the only one who finds that “artist’s rendition” hilarious? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/109 "2017-02-13T19:01:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Am I the only one who finds that “artist’s rendition” hilarious? By Jessica, Age: 7 1/2 😛 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/110 "2017-02-14T12:12:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Am I the only one who finds that “artist’s rendition” hilarious? No, no, you are definitely not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/111 "2017-02-14T14:12:16Z")
Tell me that’s a joke by whoever wrote that article. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/112 "2017-02-14T15:10:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Screw the reptiles - the late Cretaceous was also the last hurrah of the ammonites. And [quite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapuzosia_bradyi) a [hurrah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapuzosia_seppenradensis) it was… The extinction of the ammonites might have had a lot to do with the extinction of the mosasaurs, since they were one of their main foods. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/113 "2017-02-14T15:21:36Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Contrary to popular belief, dinosaurs never died out due to catastrophe. They simply got smaller and much better at maintaining their juvenile characteristics to help them survive in a new environment. Those are the birds that you see all around you today. Interesting. The asteroid theory still gets a lot of media play. Can you recommend a book I could bring myself up to speed with regards to this? ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/114 "2017-02-14T16:36:06Z")
> [@White SIFL](#): > > Interesting. The asteroid theory still gets a lot of media play. Can you recommend a book I could bring myself up to speed with regards to this? I think what \*\*Shagnasty[\b] meant by his comment was not that there wasn’t a catastrophe (there was; probably more than one - both an asteroid strike and massive vulcanism were among the various catastrophes that occurred at the end of the Cretaceous), but rather that dinosaurs did not, in fact “die out”, as commonly told. Birds are among us, and, since they are dinosaurs, dinosaurs are still around. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/115 "2018-09-25T01:56:51Z")
[Here](https://gizmodo.com/check-out-this-incredible-extinct-bird-from-the-cretace-1829275965) is an interesting new old bird. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/116 "2018-09-25T16:02:46Z")
The Ends of the World: Volcanic Apocalypses, Lethal Oceans, and Our Quest to Understand Earth’s Past Mass Extinctions - Peter Brannen Covers all five mass extinctions, including the one that killed most dinosaurs, and discusses the volcano versus asteroid debate. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/117 "2018-09-25T16:23:04Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > [Here](https://gizmodo.com/check-out-this-incredible-extinct-bird-from-the-cretace-1829275965) is an interesting new old bird. If the article is correct, this bird probably has no living descendants because its wing joints were fused in a different way than modern birds. There were all sorts of birds in the Cretaceous that ended up going extinct, and our modern birds are the one lineage that avoided extinction. Or to put it another way, “modern birds” is a synonym for “all the kinds of birds that didn’t go extinct at the end of the Cretaceous”. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/118 "2018-09-25T17:26:04Z")
re: pterosaurs being dinosaurs: > [@MrDibble](#): > > No, by \*every \*scientific definition and every \*informed \*lay one, even predating the popularity of cladistics. None of the early researchers considered them dinosaurs, nobody who knows anything does now either. > > Only the publishers of the shittier sort of “dinosaur” kiddie books and the makers of cheap plastic dinosaur toys call pterosaurs dinosaurs. But then, they also do that with _Dimetrodon_, so fuck 'em. Well, the Washington Post does. I saw this some time back and it annoyed me: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/museums/the-dinos-are-coming-in-another-18-months-natural-history-museum-returns-first-fossil-to-gallery/2017/11/14/ae1c9fac-c639-11e7-aae0-cb18a8c29c65\_story.html?utm\_term=.837277c40cbf](https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/museums/the-dinos-are-coming-in-another-18-months-natural-history-museum-returns-first-fossil-to-gallery/2017/11/14/ae1c9fac-c639-11e7-aae0-cb18a8c29c65_story.html?utm_term=.837277c40cbf) > [@picture caption](#): > > A pteranodon specimen hangs in its new spot at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of Natural History in the District, the first dinoaur fossil to be reinstalled at the Fossil Hall, which will reopen in June 2019. (Lee Powell/The Washington Post) > [@text of article](#): > > It’s not the biggest or the most popular, but the first dinosaur returned to the Fossil Hall in the National Museum of Natural History, marking a milestone in the five-year renovation project that is still 18 months from completion. > > Exhibition project manager Siobhan Starrs practically leapt with joy as she watched workers mount a pteranodon, a flying reptile, on one of the popular gallery’s renovated walls. > > ------snip------ > > The pteranodon went in first because it will hang on a wall that will be covered in murals. The rest of the dinosaurs… ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/119 "2018-09-26T15:50:37Z")
“First the exhibition manager leaped for joy. Then she looked more closely at the captions…number four will shock you.” ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234/120 "2018-09-26T18:11:07Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > No, it’s complex. The tree in this case is not fractal; the branches can be of very different lengths and branching patterns. > … What this thread obviously needs now is a long discussion of the distinction between the technical and commonly understood meanings of “fractal”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-common-ancestor-of-all-living-birds/693234.md?page=7)