# Most recent historical person(s) to have their name routinely translated when referenced ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 27, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865 "2016-10-27T18:02:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/1 "2016-10-27T18:02:05Z")
This is hard to explain succinctly in a thread title, so I’ll expand below. In years gone by, prominent historical figures would commonly have their names translated when referred to in various European languages. Charlemagne is an easy example: _Charlemagne_ (French and English), _Charles the Great_ (English alternate form), _Karl der Große_ (German), _Carlomagno_ (Spanish), _Carlos Magno_ (Portuguese), _Nagy Károly_ (Hungarian), _Karl den store_ (Swedish), \*Kaarle Suuri \*(Finnish), etc. Of course, there are many more examples. The man known in English- and French-speaking countries as Confucius is known to Spanish and Italian speakers as _Confucio_. The English king Henry VIII is known as _Heinrich VIII_ in German, _Enrique VIII_ in Spanish, and _Enrico VIII_ in Italian. For Spanish speakers, two _esposas de Enrique VIII_ were _Juana Seymour_ and _Catalina Howard_. OK. So the General Question is: **Who were among the most recent historical persons to still have their names auto-translated in this way?** Looking at Wikipedia articles in various languages – so long as the language uses the Roman alphabet, “George Washington” will always be “George Washington”. He’s not known in Italy as _Giorgio Washington_, or _Jorge Washington_ in Spain. It seems that popes and European monarchs still have their names translated sometimes – for example, the sitting monarch of the United Kingdom is _Isabel II (del Reino Unido)_ in Spanish per Wikipedia. Conversely, Bill Clinton was never _Guillermo Clinton_. François Mitterrand was never _Francisco Mitterand_. Albert Einstein was never _Alberto Einstein_. And so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Nansbread1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Nansbread1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nansbread1)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/2 "2016-10-27T18:12:33Z")
Mahatma Gandhi has in India Ghandi to the rest of the world ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/3 "2016-10-27T18:15:39Z")
I seem to remember a history book published in the eighties referring to “Jorge Washington” (or may be I’m confusing it with Jorge III of England) I’ll check it out when I get home and confirm. The names of kings and queens where definitely translated though (Federico of Prussia, Luis XIV, Maria Teresa of Austria, etc) ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/4 "2016-10-27T18:26:34Z")
Carl Linnaeus (1707-1778) is often known by the Latin form of his first name, Carolus. His last name Linnæus was already Latin in form from his birth. It was his father’s actual surname that he chose when he entered university (before that the family used patronymics only and not a surname). Carl’s most famous works were first published in Latin so it’s natural he should be known by his Latin name Carolus. After his 1761 ennoblement, his name in Swedish was _Carl von Linné_. By modern standards of nomenclature, that is probably what we would call him today. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/5 "2016-10-27T18:26:56Z")
> [@Nansbread1](#): > > Mahatma Gandhi has in India Mahatma is a title though, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/6 "2016-10-27T18:35:39Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > It seems that popes and European monarchs still have their names translated sometimes That’s generally true of Catholic figures whose names ‘belong to the Church’ so to speak (maybe there’s a more exact and formal way to say that, I don’t know), either the names Cardinals take on becoming Pope, or saints. But the Latin form of a name has primacy. So for example in Korean they sound it out in the alphabet to try to hit the Latin version of the name. The first Korean priest became St. Andrew Kim Dae-geon in English but 성 안드레아 김대건, seong an-deu-re-ah Kim Dae-geon in Korean. It’s the same for Western saints, and the Pope is 프란치스코, Peu-ran-chi-seu-ko. It’s not trying to match ‘Francis’, and why would it be? (plus the tendency of Latin words to end in vowels also makes it practically easier to come closer to, same with 耶穌 in Chinese, two characters chosen for sound not meaning which sound approximately like the Latin Ye-su in Mandarin; it would be harder to match the English pronunciation of Jesus, besides more arbitrary). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/7 "2016-10-27T18:36:07Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > For Spanish speakers, two _esposas de Enrique VIII_ were _Juana Seymour_ and _Catalina Howard_. > > OK. So the General Question is: **Who were among the most recent historical persons to still have their names auto-translated in this way?** Looking at Wikipedia articles in various languages – so long as the language uses the Roman alphabet, “George Washington” will always be “George Washington”. He’s not known in Italy as _Giorgio Washington_, or _Jorge Washington_ in Spain. Washington was referred to as Jorge Washington in my parents’ schoolbooks. And Seymour is now moving to being a Jane. It’s evolving. Doesn’t mean people can pronounce the “spelled in the original” version correctly, mind you. The most recent historical persons? If by historical you mean dead, JPII. > [@Corry\_El](#): > > It’s not trying to match ‘Francis’, and why would it be? Specially since the original form would be Franciscus (the official language of the RCC), or Francesco (the original version of the name in its original language). ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/8 "2016-10-27T18:36:31Z")
Freidrich III of Prussia (1831–1888) is usually called Frederick III in English. Formerly his son was commonly referred to as William II in English, but it is now more common to call him Wilhelm II. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/9 "2016-10-27T18:40:40Z")
> [@Nansbread1](#): > > Mahatma Gandhi has in India > > Ghandi to the rest of the world Who, except for chronic misspellers, is calling him “Ghandi”? Even Google Chrome recognizes that as a misspelling. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/10 "2016-10-27T19:20:28Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Specially since the original form would be Franciscus (the official language of the RCC), or Francesco (the original version of the name in its original language). I said Latin but should have said latinate. The Church in Korea uses a standard set of names, not necessarily Roman times Latin (they never end in ‘us’) nor necessarily AFAICS modern Italian, but more like it, anyway standard, and latin-like, with vowel endings an apparent goal since it’s more awkward to generate ending vowel sounds. It seems Chinese uses similar or same set, not sure if same. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/11 "2016-10-27T19:34:31Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Who, except for chronic misspellers, is calling him “Ghandi”? Even Google Chrome recognizes that as a misspelling. I think **Nansbread1** forgot the " 😃 " at the end of his/her post. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/12 "2016-10-27T19:59:01Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > I think **Nansbread1** forgot the " 😃 " at the end of his/her post. TBF so did I. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/13 "2016-10-27T20:00:03Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Specially since the original form would be Franciscus (the official language of the RCC), or Francesco (the original version of the name in its original language). I think we can safely say that Popes’ names still get the auto-translation treatment; their official papal names are in Latin - Franciscus, Benedictus XVI, Ioannes Paulus II, etc… even though they get translated into Francisco, Benedikt XVI, Jan Pawel II, and so on in the various countries where they’re spoken of. Question- was Tony Blair referred to as “Tony Blair” in Italy, or was he “Antonio Blair” or perhaps “Tonio Blair” or “Tonino Blair”? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/14 "2016-10-27T20:26:50Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Washington was referred to as Jorge Washington in my parents’ schoolbooks. Random Googling turned up [Colegio Jorge Washington](http://www.cojowa.edu.co/), an American international school in Cartagena, Colombia. Founded in 1952, and – yep – named after our first President 🆒 And this [1873 book about United States history, written in Spanish](https://books.google.com/books?id=HyZMAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PR6&lpg=RA1-PR6&dq=%22Juan+Adams%22,+presidente&source=bl&ots=d1KCpzArP_&sig=PiyhHDoJyI3zIDBdaXo8bkqSIMk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUhbWs5vvPAhUJfiYKHVZfDAUQ6AEIQDAL#v=onepage&q=%22Juan%20Adams%22%2C%20presidente&f=false), refers to “Juan Adams”, “Juan Marshall”, “Jacobo Madison” (not Jaime or Diego?), “Enrique Clay”, “Jorge Clinton” (the former VP, not the musician :D), etc. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/15 "2016-10-27T20:37:49Z")
NBA player Giannis Antetokounmpo’s family came from Nigeria to Greece, whee his surname would have been spelled Adetokumbo. But the phonemes /d/ and /b/ do not occur naturally in Greek, and those sounds have to be rendered as /ντ/ and /μπ/, in accordance with Greek rules for respelling foreign names. So when leaving Greece, he transliterated his surname using direct Greek alphabet substitution. As a result, Adetokumbo (in English-speaking Nigerial) got changed to Antetokounmpo (in English-speaking America), but the pronunciation remained the same. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/16 "2016-10-27T20:38:45Z")
I’ve noticed that the Latvian language translates/transliterates people’s names, hence [Džordžs V. Bušs](https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C5%BEord%C5%BEs_V._Bu%C5%A1s), and [Hilarija Klintone](https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilarija_Klintone). ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/17 "2016-10-27T20:44:51Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > NBA player Giannis Antetokounmpo’s family came from Nigeria to Greece, whee his surname would have been spelled Adetokumbo. But the phonemes /d/ and /b/ do not occur naturally in Greek, and those sounds have to be rendered as /ντ/ and /μπ/, in accordance with Greek rules for respelling foreign names. So when leaving Greece, he transliterated his surname using direct Greek alphabet substitution. As a result, Adetokumbo (in English-speaking Nigerial) got changed to Antetokounmpo (in English-speaking America), but the pronunciation remained the same. Nitpick: isn’t the original spelling Adetokunbo, with an n rather than an m? That explains the “n” in the Greek version, before the “mp” which is the equivalent of “b” - as anyone who has studied a Corona bottle will know, “mpira” (μπύρα) is beer. ---
**Author:** ![Timchik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@Timchik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timchik)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/18 "2016-10-27T22:46:50Z")
Lev Davidovich Trotsky is still routinely referred to as Leon or Leo Trotsky in English sources. Iosif Stalin is usually Joseph. Nikolai II and his wife Aleksandra are almost always Nicholas and Alexandra, but that’s covered by the royalty exception. As Colophon noted, some languages still do this consistently. In Czech, Hillary Clinton is Hillary Clintonová (and was succeeded as První Dáma of the USA by Laura Bushová). ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/19 "2016-10-27T23:06:58Z")
Well, in general any first names (i.e. western Judeo-Christian ones) have assorted translations or equivalents in each language. Unless the source has specific motivation - precision, going native, pretence - the translation is often used. If it’s a descriptive title - “the great”, “the terrible” - odds are unless it is really well known, or the word is familiar, we translate too. For example, we say “Tsar Nicholas” or “Kaiser Wilhelm”. (What’s brown and wants to rule the world? Kaiser Wilhelm or Attila the Bun.) But we say “King of Thailand” since almost nobody is familiar with the Thai word for his title outside the country. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/20 "2016-10-27T23:47:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Timchik** : > > As Colophon noted, some languages still do this consistently. In Czech, Hillary Clinton is Hillary Clintonová (and was succeeded as První Dáma of the USA by Laura Bushová). On the other hand, Americans would probably refer to the Prime Minister of the Czech Republic as “Mr. Sobotka”, even though Czech doesn’t use that title (according to Google, the equivalent is “Pan”). I have to wonder if maybe the -ová ending is analogous. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865.md?page=2)