# Most recent historical person(s) to have their name routinely translated when referenced ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 27, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865 "2016-10-27T18:02:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/61 "2016-10-30T12:25:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s a good point. Still, English-speakers could pronounce “Enshtein” just as easily as they pronounce “Einstein”, so I don’t think it’s just a matter of native sounds. True – here, the most natural pronunciation for an English speaker does recognize the German way of pronouncing each letter (English is a Germanic language, so nothing too exotic there), but not a specific German rule for when a particular sound should change unexpectedly. “Unexpectedly” because a typical English speaker will expect each letter or diphthong to have the same sound value in any context. They know intellectually that’s not always true – English itself is one of the worst violators-- but the extra knowledge and effort it takes to learn these “violations” in a foreign language is just the sort of thing that separates the mass of typical English speakers from the minority who have at least embarked on the journey toward learning that other language. In any case, few would call pronunciations revealing a lack of such knowledge “translations.” ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/62 "2016-10-30T12:59:40Z")
Today, were hearing about Rossini’s opera “Guillaume Tell,”. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/63 "2016-10-30T16:21:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > (and before you ask, the name “Paul” is not considered a variant of “Saul”). It shouldn’t be. Paul’s the English version of a Latin name meaning “small”. It doesn’t have any etymological connection with the Hebrew name Saul. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/64 "2016-10-30T16:41:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > In Israel, they call Popes by their Latin names, except when those names are Hebrew in origin. Thus, the current Pope is Franciscus, and the one before him was Benedictus, but the one before \*him \*was Yochanan Paulus (and before you ask, the name “Paul” is not considered a variant of “Saul”). > > Israelis also occasionally “Yiddishize” the names of non-Israeli Jews, like Steven Shpielberg and Albert Einshtein. It’s less common nowadays, though. As a slight hijack, I have noticed that Jewish people’s name (sometimes by themselves) are often translated, even today. Arabic names, even ones which are derived from Hebrew names, or have counterparts are as a rule never. Its Harun-ur-Rasheed, not Aaron Upright. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/65 "2016-10-30T22:23:36Z")
Outside of Israel, Jews often have a Hebrew name in addition to their regular name, which is used inside their own community and for liturgical purposes. Sometimes, the two are simply the same name in two languages - an Isaac is also Yitzhak; in other cases the two names are unconnected. My grandfather’s English name, for instance, was Charles, while his Hebrew name was Betzalel. As to why the custom exists - it’s a minority group thing. You choose a name in the common tongue name to make things easier with outsiders, and a name in your own language for your own people. Jews have a lot more experience in being a minority than almost anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/66 "2016-10-30T22:45:13Z")
Speaking of Israeli/Hebrew names, it was not unusual for Spanish language media in my youth to refer to the recently deceased former leader with the Spanish transposition as “Simón” Peres, which had the fun bonus of making it sound like a Puerto Rican was Israeli Foreign Minister 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JpnDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/838e76/32.png) [@JpnDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JpnDude)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/67 "2016-10-31T03:02:47Z")
In Japan, they use their own readings of the kanji characters for Chinese to decide on pronunciation. President of the PRC 习近平 Xi Jinping (standard romanized version) Shuu Kin-pei (in Japanese romanization) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/68 "2016-10-31T07:42:17Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Outside of Israel, Jews often have a Hebrew name in addition to their regular name, which is used inside their own community and for liturgical purposes. Sometimes, the two are simply the same name in two languages - an Isaac is also Yitzhak; in other cases the two names are unconnected. My grandfather’s English name, for instance, was Charles, while his Hebrew name was Betzalel. Interesting. Thanks > [@](#): > > As to why the custom exists - it’s a minority group thing. You choose a name in the common tongue name to make things easier with outsiders, and a name in your own language for your own people. Jews have a lot more experience in being a minority than almost anyone else. In the Western world. In the non-Western world there are several minorities of long standing and dispersal who do not do this (Sikhs, Parsees come to mind). Do Arab Jews do this? ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/69 "2016-10-31T08:04:26Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Proper names should not be translated. So if I wrote about [明仁](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihito), you’d know who that was? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/70 "2016-10-31T08:52:29Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Do Arab Jews do this? Many do, or did (there are very few Jews left in Arab countries, after all). For instance, former Israeli Minister of Defense, Basra native [Binyamin Ben-Eliezer,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binyamin_Ben-Eliezer) was better known by his Arabic name “Fuad”; the late religious leader Ovadia Yosef was called Abdullah Yusuf before immigrating to Israel, and so on. Incidentally, Jews from Arab countries are generally not referred to as “Arab Jews”. The accepted term is “Mizrahi” (Oriental), although to be fair, that also covers Jews from anywhere in the Muslim world, including non-Arab countries. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/71 "2016-10-31T10:22:19Z")
What about Arabic which are from Hebrew, such as Yusaf, Yacub, Mikahail, Suliman? Or Mariam, Saira? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/72 "2016-10-31T10:42:19Z")
Sure. In most cases, the Arabic name is the Arabic version of the Hebrew name. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/73 "2016-10-31T11:22:17Z")
Well, yes, however how different the name does vary. Ishaq is different enough from Yikshak (Isaac in English for those following). But Yousaf and Yosef are pretty much the same, and the differences in pronunciation for that name (or Yacob) are often dependent on the dialects of the Arab world, I have noticed Levantine Arabs pronounce Yousaf closer to Yosef anyway, and Yacub more like “_Yacoove_”. Would Levantine origin Arabic-speaking Jews have pronunciations closer to Hebrew ones than say Mesopotamian ones. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/74 "2016-10-31T11:58:47Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Speaking of Israeli/Hebrew names, it was not unusual for Spanish language media in my youth to refer to the recently deceased former leader with the Spanish transposition as “Simón” Peres, which had the fun bonus of making it sound like a Puerto Rican was Israeli Foreign Minister 😃 I’ve never heard him called anything else by Spanish media. Dude chose a Portuguese name, his name gets treated as if he was Portuguese. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/75 "2016-10-31T12:05:03Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > So if I wrote about [明仁](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihito), you’d know who that was? He said they should not be translated, not that they shouldn’t be transcribed. (For the record, I agree.) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/76 "2016-10-31T12:59:08Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Well, yes, however how different the name does vary. Ishaq is different enough from Yikshak (Isaac in English for those following). But Yousaf and Yosef are pretty much the same, and the differences in pronunciation for that name (or Yacob) are often dependent on the dialects of the Arab world, I have noticed Levantine Arabs pronounce Yousaf closer to Yosef anyway, and Yacub more like “_Yacoove_”. Would Levantine origin Arabic-speaking Jews have pronunciations closer to Hebrew ones than say Mesopotamian ones. I suppose it depends on who’s speaking. For instance, my own Hebrew name is Yehoshua, and my English name is Joshua (note that the latter is a translation of the former). Most people, Israelis and Americans, call me “Josh”\*. Americans and other English-speakers pronounce it in the usual fashion for their country of origin, while Israelis pronounce the “O” sound like the Hebrew “ו”, which is sort of half way between O in “Jones” and the U in “Push”. I believe the Arabic O sound is very similar. Similarly, Levantine Arabs would probably pronounce Yusuf as “Yousaf”, while Israelis, if they don’t say “Yosef”, would probably say “Yusuf”, because that’s how the name is usually transcribed in Hebrew. - I never liked “Yehoshua” that much. It’s a very uncool name for someone my age; my parents were new immigrants when I was born, so I can’t blame them for giving me a crappy name. Joshua, after all, is one of the most common names for American Jewish men of my generation, so they meant well. I’ve been “Josh” to everyone except my accountant and dentist since I was 18 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/77 "2016-10-31T22:18:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Outside of Israel, Jews often have a Hebrew name in addition to their regular name, which is used inside their own community and for liturgical purposes. Sometimes, the two are simply the same name in two languages - an Isaac is also Yitzhak; in other cases the two names are unconnected. My grandfather’s English name, for instance, was Charles, while his Hebrew name was Betzalel. > > As to why the custom exists - it’s a minority group thing. You choose a name in the common tongue name to make things easier with outsiders, and a name in your own language for your own people. Jews have a lot more experience in being a minority than almost anyone else. Interestingly, the actor whose parents named him Philip Finkel adopted the first name Fyvush for the Yiddish theater, and kept the stage name even when he moved to English-speaking Broadway, film, and television roles. So only his closest associates would have ever called him “Philip” or “Phil”! ---
**Author:** ![Annoying\_Buzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Annoying\_Buzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annoying_Buzz)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865/78 "2016-11-01T00:25:18Z")
Chinese names are typically rendered in Japanese according to the Japanese pronunciation of their Kanji/Hanzi characters. Mao Zedong - Mou Takutou Chiang Kai-shek - Shou Kaiseki Xi Jinping - Shuu Kinpei Korean names, on the other hand, are typically written in kanji (at least for the family names), but given phonetic readings to match their Korean pronunciation as closely as possible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recent-historical-person-s-to-have-their-name-routinely-translated-when-referenced/769865.md?page=3)