# Most recursive fiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 21, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553 "2013-06-21T13:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/41 "2013-06-22T01:04:23Z")
Far from the record-holder, but the play _Man of La Mancha_ reaches four layers: You’ve got the actual actors, then you’ve got Cervantes and the other prisoners who are acting out the tale, then you’ve got Alonzo Quijano and Aldonza, and then you’ve got the Don Quixote/Dulcinea delusional world they create. I also once played a four-layer-character in a different play, but it seems to have been written by the drama club faculty director, so none of you would have heard of it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/42 "2013-06-22T02:21:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Far from the record-holder, but the play _Man of La Mancha_ reaches four layers I’d just like to point out that Scott Bakula played Sam Beckett playing an actor named Ray Hutton playing Don Quixote in _Man of La Mancha_. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/43 "2013-06-22T02:42:46Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > So was I. I’ll have to mention “Who’s Cribbing?” by Jack Lewis [Who's Cribbing?, by Jack Lewis, STARTLING STORIES - The Unz Review](http://www.unz.org/Pub/StartlingStories-1953jan-00083) instead. Whoa, _deja vu_! I swear, I came across a story like that during the '80s (maybe '90s). In that one, the publisher was a friend of the writer and trusted that he was telling the truth. Also, the protagonist had only submitted his story a few weeks later than the original manuscript, and the protagonist was not the only writer to whom this had happened. Then the publisher went to his friend the next time the “mystery writer” submitted a manuscript and showed it to him. They were both perplexed by the fact that the paper was perforated on four sides, and that the text was right-justified. The writer did some investigating on his own, based on the return address from the manuscript.Turned out to be a hot chick with a time machine. Anybody remember the name of this iteration of the idea (probably appeared in Isaac Asimov’s Magazine of Fantasy and science fiction)? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/44 "2013-06-22T08:13:39Z")
[This xkcd cartoon](http://xkcd.com/248/) is funny. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/45 "2013-06-22T19:33:14Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Whoa, _deja vu_! > > I swear, I came across a story like that during the '80s (maybe '90s). In that one, the publisher was a friend of the writer and trusted that he was telling the truth. Also, the protagonist had only submitted his story a few weeks later than the original manuscript, and the protagonist was not the only writer to whom this had happened. > > Then the publisher went to his friend the next time the “mystery writer” submitted a manuscript and showed it to him. They were both perplexed by the fact that the paper was perforated on four sides, and that the text was right-justified. > > The writer did some investigating on his own, based on the return address from the manuscript.Turned out to be a hot chick with a time machine. > > Anybody remember the name of this iteration of the idea (probably appeared in Isaac Asimov’s Magazine of Fantasy and science fiction)? The story was “Hindsight” by Eric G. Iverson (pen name of Harry Turtledove\*). It appeared in Analog in [mid-December 1984](http://turtledove.wikia.com/wiki/Hindsight), their spoof issue. \*At the start of his career, Turtledove’s editors thought no one would believe his real name, so he used “Eric G. Iverson” as his pseudonym. Eventually, he decided his real name was good enough, and stopped using Iverson. The editors had a point: I remember someone complaining about a Turtledove story and wondering why the author hid his real name. ---
**Author:** ![chinchalinchin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9bd4f/32.png) [@chinchalinchin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chinchalinchin)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/46 "2013-06-22T22:36:23Z")
House of Leaves by Mark Danielewski ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/47 "2013-06-22T23:08:13Z")
Jasper Fforde’s books about Thursday Next, who can enter the world of books and interact with the characters, are very meta. Right now I’m reading One of Our Thursdays is Missing, in which there is Thursday, the fictional Thursday (as the books about her are in the world of books) and and “understudy” Thursday. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/48 "2013-06-22T23:40:46Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > [House of Leaves](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_leaves) is fairly layered. > [@cmyk](#): > > Damn, beaten to **House of Leaves** (excellent book) by Ferret Herder! > [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > and (as mentioned above) Mark Z. Danielewski’s **House of Leaves**. > [@chinchalinchin](#): > > House of Leaves by Mark Danielewski So, chinchalinchin, are you being meta or recursive? And that applies to your name as well. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/49 "2013-06-22T23:51:36Z")
[This is the title of the story, which is also found several times in the story itself.](http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/titleOfTheStory.html) This is the first sentence of this story. This is the second sentence. This is the title of this story, which is also found several times in the story itself. This sentence is questioning the intrinsic value of the first two sentences. This sentence is to inform you, in case you haven’t already realized it, that this is a self-referential story, that is, a story containing sentences that refer to their own structure and function. This is a sentence that provides an ending to the first paragraph. This is the first sentence of a new paragraph in a self-referential story… ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/50 "2013-06-23T03:42:31Z")
Several books already mentioned are included in the fascinating list [10 Phenomenally Tricky Books Everyone Should Read](http://flavorwire.com/381478/10-phenomenally-tricky-books-everyone-should-read) at flavorwire. ---
**Author:** ![ruh-roh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ruh-roh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruh-roh)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/51 "2013-06-23T04:25:04Z")
Not “the most recursive”, but the Terminator movies, especially the first one, wraps around nicely on itself. Not a sic-fi story, but Deathtrap as being blurred between what is real and what part is the theatrical play story. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/52 "2013-06-24T12:10:47Z")
The one that springs to mind is **Perec** ’s wonderful \*La Vie, Mode d’Emploi \*(Life A User’s Manual). The book is a collection of dozens of stories that are linked by the fact that they happen to the inhabitants of the same apartment block in Paris over the course several decades. Moreover, most of the characters are themselves connected to an eccentric rich man, who also lives there, and has dedicated his life and fortune to a ridiculous, time-consuming and completely pointless task. It is so sprawling that there is appendix at the end which contains a list of the main stories, a chronology and the names of all the people that appear in the book (who can be real like Napoleon, imaginary like Superman, real “within the book” like the characters and imaginary “whithin the book” like a character in a book read by one of the characters). It was written following a very strict set of writing constraints (one of Perec’s favourite trick) but the great thing is that it doesn’t feel that way: it’s a very funny book, full of whacky adventures and colourful characters. The (appropriatley absurd) ending is the icing on the cake as you realize that the whole 600+ pages book actually takes place in a single moment. When I got there, I wondered how I had missed it since there are clues in every chapter. It made me want to reread the whole thing right away 🆒. Clever and very funny. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/53 "2013-06-24T12:14:59Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > Maybe I’m thinking of the wrong story, but Heinlein’s “By His Bootstraps” comes to my mind. I was thinking of “All You Zombies”. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/54 "2013-06-24T12:15:36Z")
“It was a dark and stormy night. The tribe’s leader stood up before his people, and began to speak: 'It was a dark and stormy night. The tribe’s leader stood up before his people,…” ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/55 "2013-06-25T01:10:27Z")
There’s an episode of The Prisoner called The Schizoid Man that involves impressive degrees of evil twin imposters. 6 disguised as 12 pretending to be 6 pretending to be 12, etc. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/56 "2013-06-27T17:34:28Z")
[ENOCH SOAMES, a short story by Max Beerbohm](http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/427/) has only two or three degrees of recursion, but still seems worth mentioning. I stumbled across a mention of it just a few minutes ago (in Littlewood’s _Mathematician’s Miscellania_ of all places – he writes “Reflexiveness flickers delicately in and out of the latter part of Max Beerbohm’s story Enoch Soames”) and Googled for it only because of this thread. It’s 11,000 words – is that typical for a short story? – but I enjoyed it. As an extra level of recursion, I remember being mystified (never having heard of Soames) 16 years ago to read [an account that Soames did indeed visit the British Museum’s reading room](http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/97nov/teller.htm) as predicted 80-odd years earlier! The story has been mentioned at SDMB before in threads titled Fictional references that became true Proof that time travel is impossible? What’s your favorite Short Story? Famous People Who NEVER Existed! For example: > [@Fictional references that became true](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-references-that-became-true/514656/82): > > A particularly interesting example is the story of [Enoch Soames.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_Soames) In 1919 Max Beerbohm wrote a short story, set in 1897, in which a man called Enoch Soames travels through time to visit the British Library at a given hour on a given date in 1997. Teller, of Penn & Teller, liked the story so much that he arranged for a ‘real’ Enoch Soames to appear in the British Library at the scheduled time. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/57 "2013-06-30T03:24:36Z")
Finnegans Wake. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/58 "2013-06-30T03:42:26Z")
Would [“The Iron Dream”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Dream) by Norman Spinrad count? ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/59 "2013-06-30T11:15:41Z")
“Pyramis and Thisbe”? There was a novella-within-a-novel in _The World According to Garp_ wherein Garp writes a sordid story about a sex crimes detective in reaction to learning about his wife’s infidelity with a student. IIRC, there was also another one that John Irving later rewrote as _The Hotel New Hampshire._ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553/60 "2013-06-30T13:37:26Z")
> [@tellyworth](#): > > There’s an episode of The Prisoner called The Schizoid Man that involves impressive degrees of evil twin imposters. 6 disguised as 12 pretending to be 6 pretending to be 12, etc. There’s an episode of MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE – The Play – where Michael Tolan plays Rollin Hand disguised as vain actor Vitol Enzor rehearsing a play in-character as an Eastern European head of state. That’s not too noteworthy for M:I (Shock, for example, features James Daly as secret agent Briggs pretending to be impostor Gort pretending to be diplomat Wilson), except the whole twist of _The Play_ is that the actors on-stage keep delivering perfectly innocuous lines right in front of the government minister putting on the show – while the _ **real** _ Premier, a little farther back in the theater, hears a piped-in track of insulting pre-recorded slander that syncs up perfectly with the performers’ lips. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-recursive-fiction/661553.md?page=2)