# "Most self defense classes are ineffective because they fail to take surprise into account" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 1, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533 "2015-04-01T19:11:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FasterThanMeerkats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@FasterThanMeerkats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FasterThanMeerkats)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533/21 "2015-04-02T15:33:36Z")
Tim Larkin’s _How to Survive the Most Critical 5 Seconds of Your Life_ is also fairly pragmatic regarding more intense and unexpected encounters (home invasion, assault, serial killers or other deranged individuals, etc) and also advocates role-playing and intense situation training. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533/22 "2015-04-02T16:05:15Z")
> [@FasterThanMeerkats](#): > > In my Krav Maga classes we regularly trained the lead-up to a lot of ritualized bar fights (eye contact, trash talking, pushing) with an emphasis on having hands up to provide a fence against sucker punches and palms open to make it clear to everyone else we weren’t the aggressor. My problem with understanding this is that practice is not the same as application. I’m a real good boxer when you box at 50% speed and power. But the closer and closer you get to 100%, the lesser and lesser blows that actually land and you get hit a lot more too. It’s real easy to dodge a punch coming at 50% speed and power. How do you practice a throat punch or a slap to the eardrum at 90%. You really can’t do it, can you? It is so hard to hit a precise target when you are going full speed and full power. Look, on the double end bag\* I have incredible precision but it all but disappears when you are actually sparring full out. Two inches and speed and timing of a blow is so critical at full speed. How do you’ll accurately simulate real events? \*I can hit this double end big with lightning like precision and accuracy but my skill is reduced by 50% when engaging a real live person: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3MyZ9FXThY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3MyZ9FXThY) ---
**Author:** ![FasterThanMeerkats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@FasterThanMeerkats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FasterThanMeerkats)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533/23 "2015-04-02T16:28:30Z")
Replying to \*\* Robert163\*\* You can easily train ear slaps to a partner holding a focus mitt no problem combined with trashtalking and pushing (give it a try next time at your gym, you can train at 90-100% strength on the pad). And KM regular trains burn out punching drills on tombstone pads and kick shields at 100% strength in every single class session. So it’s not like it’s a “theoretical” discussion. It’s a close as you can get without hurting yourself or your partner. Other parts of class are slower and about teaching techniques or situational awareness. Also, the ear slap (to jaw or ear) as I’ve learned it is more/less an open handed hook to open up the fight, after that it’s running straights, knees, chain punches, whatever, and adapting to the situation (i.e. nothing fancy). Everyone agrees that fine motor control goes out the window fast. I haven’t seen anything yet that has struck me as completely impractical (some things do require more muscle memory training than others). As a boxer you’d probably find a lot of self-defense classes interesting (a lot of parallels and a lot of new stuff like groundwork, weapons considerations, multiples, third-parties, etc). I’d encourage you to go observe or try a class or two in your area. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533/24 "2015-04-02T16:46:28Z")
> [@FasterThanMeerkats](#): > > Replying to \*\* Robert163\*\* > > You can easily train ear slaps to a partner holding a focus mitt no problem combined with trashtalking and pushing (give it a try next time at your gym, you can train at 90-100% strength on the pad). And KM regular trains burn out punching drills on tombstone pads and kick shields at 100% strength in every single class session. So it’s not like it’s a “theoretical” discussion. It’s a close as you can get without hurting yourself or your partner. Other parts of class are slower and about teaching techniques or situational awareness. > > Also, the ear slap (to jaw or ear) as I’ve learned it is more/less an open handed hook to open up the fight, after that it’s running straights, knees, chain punches, whatever, and adapting to the situation (i.e. nothing fancy). Everyone agrees that fine motor control goes out the window fast. I haven’t seen anything yet that has struck me as completely impractical (some things do require more muscle memory training than others). > > As a boxer you’d probably find a lot of self-defense classes interesting (a lot of parallels and a lot of new stuff like groundwork, weapons considerations, multiples, third-parties, etc). I’d encourage you to go observe or try a class or two in your area. Yes but punch mitts are a lot easier to hit than a real person. do you’ll ever do any actual sparring/fighting? sorry to be so critical. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533/25 "2015-04-02T17:03:32Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > I have had a little bit of training in boxing, and I have been in a handful of bar “fights” where the main goal was to land as many punches as possible before the police showed up and everyone scattered (no one was trying to _kill_ anyone). > > So when I was punched in the face unexpectedly by a dude on the street, it was a big shock. I went down and was stunned and defenseless on the ground for enough time that he could have stomped my face in. Thankfully, he didn’t. > > If you had told me beforehand that I would go down from one punch and then lay there dazed on the ground, I’d have laughed in your face, > > TL;DR : Surprise matters. Of cos, surprise matters. Also one punch can take you down quite easily, if it hits the right spot. > [@Spud](#): > > Anecdote Alert!!! > > My girlfriend in college (now my wife of 28 years) was taking a self defense class and proudly showed me her moves as she learned them. One day I spotted her heading back to her dorm across a sparsely wooded field. I dashed over and came up behind her giving her a big bear hug around her arms and torso (carefully keeping my balls as far back as possible). What did she do? She froze and tried to scream but nothing came out. > > Based on my experience I would say the OP is pretty accurate. Sure, just because you took a first aid course your not suddenly a doctor med and do heart transplants. It takes training, lots of it and even then it depends on the person and circumstances. Just taking a few self-defense classed doesn’t automatically transform you into a Navy Seal. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533/26 "2015-04-02T17:12:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes but punch mitts are a lot easier to hit than a real person. do you’ll ever do any actual sparring/fighting? sorry to be so critical. Of cos its harder to hit a real person, that does not want to get punched :smack: ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533/27 "2015-04-02T17:38:20Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > I have had a little bit of training in boxing, and I have been in a handful of bar “fights” where the main goal was to land as many punches as possible before the police showed up and everyone scattered (no one was trying to _kill_ anyone). > > So when I was punched in the face unexpectedly by a dude on the street, it was a big shock. I went down and was stunned and defenseless on the ground for enough time that he could have stomped my face in. Thankfully, he didn’t. > > If you had told me beforehand that I would go down from one punch and then lay there dazed on the ground, I’d have laughed in your face, > > TL;DR : Surprise matters. Yup, I was once attacked in a public space with at least ten others around, got hit or kicked? in the back of the head and all I remember is the left side of my vision going black and then I woke up on the ground being kicked by two teens. I started screaming and they ran, nothing was stolen from me because the grocery bags I was carrying were still in my hands(my hands involuntarily locked). Bystanders all ran, no clue what it was about, even if I had a handgun it would have done no good at defending me. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533/28 "2015-04-02T18:24:52Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Yup, I was once attacked in a public space with at least ten others around, got hit or kicked? in the back of the head and all I remember is the left side of my vision going black and then I woke up on the ground being kicked by two teens. I started screaming and they ran, nothing was stolen from me because the grocery bags I was carrying were still in my hands(my hands involuntarily locked). > > Bystanders all ran, no clue what it was about, even if I had a handgun it would have done no good at defending me. Did you die? Were you hospitalized? If the answers to those questions are “No” and “No”, I’d consider that a satisfactory self defense outcome. To be specific, voice is a key self defense tool. Of course there’s also your psychological perception of the event, not to be ignored. IMHO emphasis on martial technique runs the risk of losing sight of self defense fundamentals, i.e. avoiding death or injury as opposed to winning pissing matches. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533/29 "2015-04-02T18:34:27Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Did you die? Were you hospitalized? > > If the answers to those questions are “No” and “No”, I’d consider that a satisfactory self defense outcome. To be specific, voice is a key self defense tool. Of course there’s also your psychological perception of the event, not to be ignored. > > IMHO emphasis on martial technique runs the risk of losing sight of self defense fundamentals, i.e. avoiding death or injury as opposed to winning pissing matches. These are all valid forms of self defense methods I’ve used in the past: - Crossing the road to avoid some thugs - Running away - Screaming my head off …and in the last resort kicking & punching, after the above failed or was forced to resort to it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533/30 "2015-04-02T18:57:56Z")
This is one reason why the attackee can rarely beat off a mountain lion attack, even tho a determined human usually can do so. Self defense classes are still useful in that they can increase awareness and not all encounters are surprise. ---
**Author:** ![FasterThanMeerkats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@FasterThanMeerkats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FasterThanMeerkats)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533/31 "2015-04-02T20:16:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes but punch mitts are a lot easier to hit than a real person. do you’ll ever do any actual sparring/fighting? sorry to be so critical. Occasionally don headgear and mitts, but simulate 3-5 second fights, not sparring. There’s a feeling that sparring promotes the idea that you can dance back and forth, whereas a self-defense situation is more of a train wreck with both combatants moving into each other and a quick resolution. So I guess to answer your question, hitting the head is not considered that hard, and if there’s a miss it’s typically followed by additional strikes, elbows, groin shot, or whatever. No one is teaching 1-punch fights. Not being critical of “sparring”, but noting that it’s used sparingly in self-defense. Being able to spar for 2-minute rounds or whatever is just not that useful. That said the feeling of getting hit (albeit with gloves) and being able to take a hit is fairly valuable. Additionally, I’ve met many ex-bouncers teaching self-defense (see the Geoff Thompson books), so I tend to believe they’re not going to promote something they don’t believe in. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533/32 "2015-04-02T20:23:00Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > These are all valid forms of self defense methods I’ve used in the past: > > - Crossing the road to avoid some thugs > - Running away > - Screaming my head off > > …and in the last resort kicking & punching, after the above failed or was forced to resort to it. Adding to the list: - Maintaining a brisk walk, awareness of surroundings and protecting your personal space. - Handing over your wallet… _jutsu_ 🙂 I’ve successfully used the last 2 techniques. My voice work has been limited to making conciliatory crowd noises when third parties were having a situation. Physical self defense techniques have been limited to childhood. I hope to keep it that way. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533/33 "2015-04-02T21:58:19Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > I feel like there’s a Monty Python Spanish Inquisition joke hiding in here Wrong Monty Python joke. [Llap-Goch Advertisement](http://www.llapgoch.org.uk/) from [The Brand New Monty Python Bok](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brand_New_Monty_Python_Bok). > [@](#): > > Fear No Man! > > I’ll make you a MASTER of LLAP-Goch … the Secret Welsh ART of SELF DEFENCE that requires NO INTELLIGENCE, STRENGTH or PHYSICAL courage. > > The FANTASTIC SECRETS of the SECRET world-famous method of SELF DEFENCE, kept secret for centuries because of their DEADLY POWER to MAIM, KILL, SMASH, BATTER, FRACTURE, CRUSH, DISMEMBER, CRACK, DISEMBOWEL, CRIPPLE, SNAP and HARM are now revealed to YOU in the English Language by a LLAP-GOCH master AT HIS OWN RISK, PROVIDED you promise to MAIM, CRUSH, DISEMBOWEL and so on ONLY in SELF DEFENCE. (This is just to cover ourselves, as you will understand.) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533/34 "2015-04-02T22:52:47Z")
> [@FasterThanMeerkats](#): > > Occasionally don headgear and mitts, but simulate 3-5 second fights, not sparring. There’s a feeling that sparring promotes the idea that you can dance back and forth, whereas a self-defense situation is more of a train wreck with both combatants moving into each other and a quick resolution. So I guess to answer your question, hitting the head is not considered that hard, and if there’s a miss it’s typically followed by additional strikes, elbows, groin shot, or whatever. No one is teaching 1-punch fights. > > Not being critical of “sparring”, but noting that it’s used sparingly in self-defense. Being able to spar for 2-minute rounds or whatever is just not that useful. That said the feeling of getting hit (albeit with gloves) and being able to take a hit is fairly valuable. > > Additionally, I’ve met many ex-bouncers teaching self-defense (see the Geoff Thompson books), so I tend to believe they’re not going to promote something they don’t believe in. Oh yes the rhytm of sparring and the rhtym of fighting are competently different! that is true. glad to see you are simulating real world tactics. i was mainly talking about getting used to being hit and also being able to punch quickly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-self-defense-classes-are-ineffective-because-they-fail-to-take-surprise-into-account/716533.md?page=1)