# Most sexist musical act that's considered "great"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 18, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110 "2014-06-18T23:06:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/21 "2014-06-19T05:55:20Z")
Not really seeing the sexism in “It’s My Party”; besides, Lesley Gore also sang “You Don’t Own Me”, which was basically an early feminist anthem. I can sort of somewhat see “Jolene” as being sexist, but Dolly Parton doesn’t exactly have a lot of misogynistic stuff in her catalog. These are mostly pretty tame examples compared to the “Suck my cock” type lyrics in a lot of hard rock, in any case. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/22 "2014-06-19T06:58:54Z")
Both songs are examples of the boyfriend skating while the singer goes after the rival. NOT anywhere near some of the examples mentioned earlier, but the three I listed were the only ones I could remember from a compilation disc I once jokingly made for my wife. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/23 "2014-06-19T07:44:15Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Just got the reissues of the first 3 Led Zeppelin albums - never really been a big fan, but wanted to hear how they sounded. While listening to them, I was struck by how sexist the lyrics were (any time a singer addresses the subject of a song as merely “woman”, I wince). If you think that calling your lover “woman” is outstandingly sexist I really wonder if you know what sexism is. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/24 "2014-06-19T07:52:30Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > If you think that calling your lover “woman” is outstandingly sexist I really wonder if you know what sexism is. I’m getting that vibe from almost all the material here. Even with “Givin’ the Dog a Bone”, all that I can see that’s sexist is that the writer is, arguably, calling a woman a dog. The rest of it just seems like a description of consensual oral sex. Even the description of the woman as somewhat plain is just descriptive, not at all sexist. Is any description of male sexual pleasure inherently sexist nowadays? Men can’t describe their life experiences without also describe what the the woman may be feelings in depth or else it’s sexist? :dubious: The Rolling Stones and Beatles stuff seems to be the only genuinely sexist material presented here. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/25 "2014-06-19T13:10:41Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > How about an entire musical . . . _Kiss Me, Kate_ ? But are the songs sexist? The best case would be “Where is the Life that Late I Led?,” but that’s counteracted by “Tom, Dick, or Harry,” “I Hate Men,” and especially “Always True to You in My Fashion,” all of which have the woman being portrayed as being strong and in charge. “I’m Ashamed the Women Are So Simple” would qualify a sexist, but, on balance, the songs in the musical treat both men and women about equally. ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/26 "2014-06-19T13:23:16Z")
Early in his career _Eminem_ was considered extremely sexist and misogynistic. Now he is rap royalty. And if _ZZ Top_ songs are not obvious enough, the videos drive the point home with a sledge hammer ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/27 "2014-06-19T13:52:51Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I must be missing something. How is this sexist? Tasteless, sure, but sexist? > … This was precisely my reaction too. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/28 "2014-06-19T14:31:25Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I’m getting that vibe from almost all the material here. > > Even with “Givin’ the Dog a Bone”, all that I can see that’s sexist is that the writer is, arguably, calling a woman a dog. The rest of it just seems like a description of consensual oral sex. Even the description of the woman as somewhat plain is just descriptive, not at all sexist. > > Is any description of male sexual pleasure inherently sexist nowadays? Men can’t describe their life experiences without also describe what the the woman may be feelings in depth or else it’s sexist? :dubious: > > The Rolling Stones and Beatles stuff seems to be the only genuinely sexist material presented here. And The Beatles sexism is confined to only about two or three, mostly relatively “minor” (not particularly popular of frequently played) songs. With The Stones, however, it is pervasive and sometimes quite extreme. Incidentally, I do not disagree with your main point, but do you really think there is anything _new_ about stigmatizing expressions of male heterosexual feelings and desires as “sexist” It has been going on, rarely challenged, at least since the early seventies. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/29 "2014-06-19T14:35:25Z")
In the early days of rock, there was no concept of “sexism.” Yes, women were considered second class, but it was not seen as “wrong.” This thread is a good example of presentism–applying the standards of the present to the acts of the past. It is never correct. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/30 "2014-06-19T15:31:40Z")
How about Billy Joel’s “She’s Always a Woman”? I think there was even a hate thread for it once. My old roommate used to refer to that as “The Geritol Song” due to lyrics such as “Oh–she takes care of herself.” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/31 "2014-06-19T15:51:04Z")
> [@xizor](#): > > And if _ZZ Top_ songs are not obvious enough, the videos drive the point home with a sledge hammer Yes, the ZZ Top fellows are definitely sexually attracted to attractive women! Stone them! … wait … they’re already very stoned … guess somebody took care of that for us! ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/32 "2014-06-19T16:15:32Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > If you think that calling your lover “woman” is outstandingly sexist I really wonder if you know what sexism is. If you think it’s not sexist, I’d wonder the same about you. I can think of no instance in which I referred to my SO as “woman” where it wouldn’t sound condescending and piss her off. But maybe it’s an age thing - we’d both be grossed out by the term “lover”, as well. > [@Blake](#): > > I’m getting that vibe from almost all the material here. > > Even with “Givin’ the Dog a Bone”, all that I can see that’s sexist is that the writer is, arguably, calling a woman a dog. The rest of it just seems like a description of consensual oral sex. Even the description of the woman as somewhat plain is just descriptive, not at all sexist. > > Is any description of male sexual pleasure inherently sexist nowadays? Men can’t describe their life experiences without also describe what the the woman may be feelings in depth or else it’s sexist? :dubious: There are songs about male sexual pleasure - Crowded House’s “When You Come” is the first that springs to mind - that don’t treat the woman as an object that exists solely for the male’s pleasure, which is most definitely the case in many of the hard rock songs mentioned. And if you don’t see why describing a woman performing oral sex on you as “plain” (much less as a dog) is sexist (hint: why would you feel the need to bring up her physical appearance at all, much less to disparage it?), I don’t know what to tell you. Then again, I shouldn’t be surprised some people are getting defensive about the topic - there’s always been a disturbing strain of sexism on these boards, or at the very least an adolescent male mindset regarding gender/sexual issues. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/33 "2014-06-19T16:22:16Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > In the early days of rock, there was no concept of “sexism.” Yes, women were considered second class, but it was not seen as “wrong.” > > This thread is a good example of presentism–applying the standards of the present to the acts of the past. It is never correct. Except a lot of the worst examples (in hard rock, at least) are from the late '60s through the '70s, at the height of the women’s liberation movement, so I’m not really applying a standard that was foreign to people at the time. ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/34 "2014-06-19T17:40:40Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > If you think it’s not sexist, I’d wonder the same about you. I can think of no instance in which I referred to my SO as “woman” where it wouldn’t sound condescending and piss her off. But maybe it’s an age thing - we’d both be grossed out by the term “lover”, as well. It might depend on the song, but I don’t think of Led Zep’s use of “woman” is sexist, either. I’m thinking of Plant moaning “Oh woman, wo-mahn” in Babe I’m Gonna Leave You sounds more pained and plaintive than sexist. It seems to me that many of the times they use “woman” it’s like they’re describing the object of their affection as a sort of manifestation of the Platonic ideal “Woman”. Admittedly, “I got a little woman and she won’t be true” throws all of that out the window. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/35 "2014-06-19T18:06:59Z")
I’d love to join the debate about whether normal male sexuality is inherently sexist but first I must express my amazement that we’ve gone 34 posts without mentioning [He Hit Me](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_Hit_Me_%28It_Felt_Like_a_Kiss%29) [(It Felt Like a Kiss)](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f20Oz9Yr_So&feature=kp) by the Crystals. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/36 "2014-06-19T18:07:36Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > It might depend on the song, but I don’t think of Led Zep’s use of “woman” is sexist, either. I’m thinking of Plant moaning “Oh woman, wo-mahn” in Babe I’m Gonna Leave You sounds more pained and plaintive than sexist. > > It seems to me that many of the times they use “woman” it’s like they’re describing the object of their affection as a sort of manifestation of the Platonic ideal “Woman”. > > Admittedly, “I got a little woman and she won’t be true” throws all of that out the window. Yeah, I can see what you’re saying - I guess this specific example is really a case of imposing today’s morality onto an earlier time, though it still does make me cringe, much like hearing someone use the term “old lady” to describe their SO, even if there’s no disrespectful intent. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/37 "2014-06-19T18:22:42Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Except a lot of the worst examples (in hard rock, at least) are from the late '60s through the '70s, at the height of the women’s liberation movement, so I’m not really applying a standard that was foreign to people at the time. Led Zep isn’t a good example for that though - they were famous for essentially adapting and adopting old blues or folk songs. For example, “Babe I’m Gonna Leave You”, mentioned upthread, was originally written as a folk song by Anne Bredon, later recorded by that noted sexist ( 😃 ) Joan Baez. Led Zep then recorded it - eventually, paying royalties to Bredon. > **[Babe I'm Gonna Leave You](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babe_I'm_Gonna_Leave_You)** > > "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" is a folk song written by Anne Bredon in the late 1950s. Joan Baez, who learned the song from a student at Oberlin College, recorded the first published version for her 1962 album Joan Baez in Concert and a variety of musicians subsequently adapted it to a variety of styles, including the Association (1965), Quicksilver Messenger Service (1968), and Led Zeppelin (1969). Following the credit on Baez's 1962 release as "traditional, arranged by Baez", subsequent releases ... Even some of the stuff they wrote themselves, like “Hey hey what can I do”, was written deliberately in the same vein as a traditional blues song. Of course, many of their songs are straight-up traditionals or blues tunes - like “gallows pole” and “when the levy breaks”. It isn’t surprising that their lyrics reflect the social mores of an earlier time! ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/38 "2014-06-19T18:24:51Z")
I can think of lots of individual songs, but when you take a group or artist’s entire catalog as a whole… well, I was going to pop in and nominate the Stones myself. I used to love them (but it’s all over now) but I started really paying attention to lyrics and the only song I can stand to listen to is Gimme Shelter. Everything else makes me want to throat punch Mick Jagger. ---
**Author:** ![corkboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/39 "2014-06-19T18:38:18Z")
I find the term “old lady” or “old man” to refer to a person’s SO more insulting than a guy calling his female SO “woman”, because in the first case you’re calling your SO “old”. No one wants to be considered old before their time. But what’s insulting- or sexist- about “woman”? Is my wife being sexist when she calls me her “man”? ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/40 "2014-06-19T18:46:08Z")
> [@corkboard](#): > > I find the term “old lady” or “old man” to refer to a person’s SO more insulting than a guy calling his female SO “woman”, because in the first case you’re calling your SO “old”. No one wants to be considered old before their time. > > But what’s insulting- or sexist- about “woman”? Is my wife being sexist when she calls me her “man”? Seems to me it’s a matter of usage - “my man” is a term of endearment, whereas addressing your SO as “woman” instead of her name (or a pet name) implies disrespect; I always associate it, rightly or not, with phrases like, “Woman, get me a beer!” or “You’d better watch your mouth, woman.” Do you not think it would be off-putting if your wife started a sentence with “Male…” rather than your name? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110.md?page=3)