# Most sexist musical act that's considered "great"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 18, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110 "2014-06-18T23:06:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/121 "2014-06-25T23:54:27Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I have to say, I thoroughly agree with (and enjoyed) **Blake’s** point by point demolishing of **woodstockbirdybird**. Yeah, but it’s starting to look like a Honesty thread with gender and race swapped out. Perhaps Princhester will be reminded of his time arguing with Troppus. Blake, perhaps you’ve realized this already but I hope you’re doing this for the sake of the audience, not your interlocutor. As for my reply to the thread, one of the most sexist songs is La Donna E Mobile which you can listen to here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A3zetSuYRg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A3zetSuYRg) and whose lyrics you can read here: [La donna è mobile - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_donna_%C3%A8_mobile) Note that it may simply be the character who is singing it who is sexist and the song may be an ironic reflection upon the character rather than advocacy of those views. Yet that song is often played as romantic which it definitely isn’t. “La Donna” in question is not simply one individual woman but women in general and it comes down to: “bitches be crazy but how else you gonna screw?” which I’m surprised isn’t a rap lyric. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/122 "2014-06-26T03:34:05Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > This might make sense if we lived in a society where women haven’t historically valued based mainly on their physical appearance, or if men had, but that’s not the society _I_ live in (maybe you do - do you reside on the moon?). You can’t pretend it’s all equal when it comes to judging appearances and the massive amount of sexist baggage associated with mocking a woman’s appearance. So you’re in favour of perpetuating women being valued based mainly on their physical appearance? I assume you must be, else you wouldn’t be proposing that women be treated differently for this reason. > [@](#): > > I was unaware that treating women as people rather than fuck-toys constituted putting them on a pedestal, but again, I’m not in my 60s. Me neither. > [@](#): > > I did ask a couple about the “damn, woman, you clean up nice!” example, and they admitted it wouldn’t bother them, but they said basically they’d see it as a playful, ironic use of the word - kind of making fun of guys who’d say “woman”. I can’t be assed checking but I seem to recall you or someone took Led Zep to task for using “woman”. They famously do so in “Whole Lotta Love”. In which the singer also addresses the female in question as “Baby”, “Girl” and “Honey”. Its almost like he’s using a series of playful affectionate terms for his lover\*. Ask your “friends” about the lyrics to the song and see if they think the singer is being disrespectful or highly affectionate. Report back and let us know how you go. > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Yeah, but it’s starting to look like a Honesty thread with gender and race swapped out. Perhaps Princhester will be reminded of his time arguing with Troppus. Dammit Michael, my PTSD was almost cured and now the flashbacks are back. \*Darn, there I go again ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/123 "2014-06-26T04:11:03Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > So you’re in favour of perpetuating women being valued based mainly on their physical appearance? I assume you must be, else you wouldn’t be proposing that women be treated differently for this reason. Oh, shit, I did say they should be treated differently for this reason! Wait - no, I didn’t. If there’s a song where a woman (or a man - apparently you think this is a real problem) calls out a man for being ugly, but who cares 'cause he’s good in the sack, I’d be inclined to think it’s sexist, too. But by all means, go along with your buddy in claiming there’s nothing sexist about insulting the appearance of the woman who’s getting you off. I know I always thought those “Put a bag over her head and fuck her for glory!” jokes were the result of healthy views of women. > [@Princhester](#): > > Me neither. Oh, OK - I’m not in my 70s, then. > [@Princhester](#): > > I can’t be assed checking but I seem to recall you or someone took Led Zep to task for using “woman”. They famously do so in “Whole Lotta Love”. In which the singer also addresses the female in question as “Baby”, “Girl” and “Honey”. Its almost like he’s using a series of playful affectionate terms for his lover\*. Ask your “friends” about the lyrics to the song and see if they think the singer is being disrespectful or highly affectionate. They did it famously quite a few times. You can cherry-pick, so can I. “This is all I got to say to you, woman - your time is gonna come” isn’t exactly what I’d call _not_ ominous. Not to mention lyrics like “Soul of a woman was created below” and basically all of “Living Loving Maid (She’s Just A Woman)”. Why the idea that Led Zeppelin or Motley Crue had sexist lyrics is even controversial is beyond me, nor is the fact that I said use of the word “woman” makes me cringe all that weird, either, IMO, given that the women I asked about it seem to agree (oh, but wait - you put quotation marks around “friends”, so obviously I made the whole thing up and nobody under 70 feels that way about the term! OK, never mind, then). ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/124 "2014-06-26T04:34:06Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > If there’s a song where a woman […] calls out a man for being ugly, but who cares 'cause he’s good in the sack, I’d be inclined to think it’s sexist, too. I’d consider that a crazy position, pinning the dial on oversensitivity. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/125 "2014-06-26T04:51:41Z")
Perhaps - as I said, there’s nowhere near the level of value placed on a man’s physical appearance in our culture, so it’s not really equivalent as far as social expectations (especially since most guys would probably rather be called good in bed than great-looking anyway). But if it was implied a man was ugly but good in the sack but who cares because that’s all men are good for anyway, I think you could make a case that it was sexist. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/126 "2014-06-26T06:43:22Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > But if it was implied a man was ugly but good in the sack but who cares because _ **that’s all men are good for anyway** _, I think you could make a case that it was sexist. Emphasis added. The original example of sexism given by you that **Ellis Dee** IMHO correctly described as “a crazy position, pinning the dial on oversensitivity” you have now completely and utterly changed so that it is indeed an example of sexism. Another few pages and your definition of sexism and the conventional definition may begin to align. Who says progress is never made? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/127 "2014-06-26T10:55:12Z")
I know I’m going backwards here but I didn’t have time to respond in depth to your earlier post before now. > [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > But by all means, go along with your buddy in claiming there’s nothing sexist about insulting the appearance of the woman who’s getting you off. Sounds like a thoroughly obnoxious thing to do but no, not inherently sexist. But then we’ve pretty much established at this point that when you say “sexist” you mean “obnoxious to a woman”. > [@](#): > > Oh, OK - I’m not in my 70s, then. Me neither. > [@](#): > > They did it famously quite a few times. You can cherry-pick, so can I. “This is all I got to say to you, woman - your time is gonna come” isn’t exactly what I’d call _not_ ominous. Wait, saying something “ominous” is sexist now? Man, your definition is hard to keep up with. But seriously, how the hell is this sexist? The guy singing the song is pissed off at the woman in question because he believes she has done the wrong thing by him. If this is “sexism” then what you are saying is that it is “sexism” for a man to be threatening and nasty to a woman. That simply isn’t sexism by any standard definition. It may be being an asshole, but it’s not sexism. What’s next: > [@](#): > > Not to mention lyrics like “Soul of a woman was created below” This particular line is sexist. Congratulations, you found one. But interestingly the song is about a man who is angry at a woman who has done him wrong (which sounds familiar, what can I say: blues tends to stick to pretty much one lyrical theme). But if you look at the rest of the lyrics the singer is saying in effect “I wanted a woman and what I got was you”. Which when you think about it is actually complimentary of women in general: it’s saying you are a bitch, which women aren’t. Which is anti-sexist. And then: > [@](#): > > “Living Loving Maid (She’s Just A Woman)” This one is hard to say whether it’s sexist or not. It’s about someone who likes to put on airs about how rich they used to be. And the singer is saying “she’s just a woman”. Now that is ambiguous. It could be a slur on women or it could be saying simply “despite what airs she puts on, she’s nothing special”. This one is a bit line ball IMHO. I tend toward the latter: the song could as easily be sung by a man about a man, with the singer not meaning anything bad by “just a man” but simply that the particular man in question is a snob for acting like he is more than a man. I don’t know nuthin’ 'bout Motley Crue. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/128 "2014-06-26T13:37:54Z")
Le Tigre was kind of sexist. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/129 "2014-06-26T14:34:01Z")
Here’s an interesting one - Neil Young’s _A Man Needs A Maid_. > **[Neil Young - A Man Needs A Maid Lyrics | AZLyrics.com](https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/neilyoung/amanneedsamaid.html)** > > Neil Young "A Man Needs A Maid": My life is changing in so many ways I don't know who to trust anymore There's a shadow running throu... Sexist, or not? I had a debate with my wife a while back about this very issue. She thought it was sexist, very clearly. My position is that it was not - that it used themes of sexism (that all the narrator appears, on the surface, to want is the most superficial of domestic relationships (“just someone to keep my house clean”) and can only understand the most trivial of roles for a woman, for example: > [@](#): > > A while ago somewhere > I don’t know when > I was watching > a movie with a friend. > I fell in love with the actress. > She was playing a part > that I could understand. Yet, the whole point of the song is loneliness, alientation and isolation - that the singer knows damn well that what he needs isn’t the “maid”, but something deeper and more profound - hence the juxtiposition of “a man needs a maid” with the plaintive “when can I see you again?”. What say you people? ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/130 "2014-06-26T15:00:18Z")
I say not sexist. I say we have been conditioned to play roles all our lives, and it’s these roles we’re trying to break free from, and yet we cannot fault a person for admitting that his conditioning brought him to his dispair. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/131 "2014-06-26T15:06:08Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > “Sacrificed everything for you” isn’t really the same as “lost everything to you”. In context, it is pretty obviously a romantic relationship. This verse would be a very odd word choice for a kid leaving home. > > I mean, we know it was intended to be a romantic relationship, so it makes sense. With all due respect, if we didn’t have Wiki to tell us it was a romantic relationship the lyrics as written do not tell me it was. The verse is not odd at all. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/132 "2014-06-26T16:37:38Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Emphasis added. > > The original example of sexism given by you that **Ellis Dee** IMHO correctly described as “a crazy position, pinning the dial on oversensitivity” you have now completely and utterly changed so that it is indeed an example of sexism. > > Another few pages and your definition of sexism and the conventional definition may begin to align. Who says progress is never made? But my point was, again, I think there’s more implicit sexism in a man calling a woman giving him sexual favors ugly than the other way around because of historical and cultural factors. You can’t really ignore those things when making an assessment. The idea that we should all be treated equally is nice, but you have to address the inequalities that still exist first and not pretend it’s a level playing field. A lot of people - not saying you specifically - seem to believe we’re living in a post-racial/post-sexist/post-homophobic society because we have a black president/women as CEOs/gay marriage etc. so that means everybody’s starting from the 50-yard line, but I’m guessing those people have never bothered to spend 2 minutes talking to their women/minority/gay/whatever friends about the issue (or looking at incarceration rates or eating disorder statistics or any number of data). It’s not like this kind of thing is an antiquated mindset perpetuated by a few retirees longing for the '50s - go to any celebrity photo site and read the disparaging comments directed at the women in the photos. Then compare that to the number of disparaging comments on photos of the men. Or just look at the #NotAllMen responses to the #YesAllWomen hashtag - instead of listening or supporting what women tell us is their own experience with sexism, a large number of men just get defensive and make it about them. SO yeah, I don’t think there’s a true equivalence. And no, I don’t think women are wilting flowers who need to be protected. I think men need to stop being shitty about women’s appearances. Women shouldn’t be shitty about men’s appearances, either, but it’s nowhere near the same kind of problem. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/133 "2014-06-26T17:23:48Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > With all due respect, if we didn’t have Wiki to tell us it was a romantic relationship the lyrics as written do not tell me it was. The verse is not odd at all. We must then agree to disagree on this point: to my mind, the first verse of the song makes far more sense in the context of a romantic relationship. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/134 "2014-06-26T20:03:14Z")
Whether or not the song is based on actual life experiences, if an artist is trying to connect with the audience (or maybe the other way around), isn’t it natural and fairly typical to generalize the subjects in the song as opposed to using names? Obviously there are many examples of songs that do feature names, but when they are omitted it seems to me more of an artistic (or even marketing) choice than because the artist is sexist. I wouldn’t assume that most artists that do this go around calling their SO “woman.” Of course there are plenty of sexist songs out there, but this particular point didn’t seem to me to be especially indicative of one. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/135 "2014-06-26T20:36:23Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Here’s an interesting one - Neil Young’s _A Man Needs A Maid_. > > [Neil Young - A Man Needs A Maid Lyrics | AZLyrics.com](http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/neilyoung/amanneedsamaid.html) > > Sexist, or not? It’s a song sung in character. If Neil Young really just wanted a woman to clean his house and leave, he wouldn’t sing this song about a guy who thinks he wants a woman to clean his house and leave. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/136 "2014-06-26T20:42:31Z")
“Woman” as used in songs from the late '60s-early '70s, is a replacement for the word “girl” or “baby” that would have been used in songs earlier. At least the love/lust object being addressed in the song is now regarded as a grown-up rather than as (psychologically) a child. This is more a sign of rock culture, and the wider culture around it, becoming less sexist rather than more so. (I wouldn’t deny that it still had a way to go, however.) ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/137 "2014-06-26T21:01:12Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > “Woman” as used in songs from the late '60s-early '70s, is a replacement for the word “girl” or “baby” that would have been used in songs earlier. At least the love/lust object being addressed in the song is now regarded as a grown-up rather than as (psychologically) a child. This is more a sign of rock culture, and the wider culture around it, becoming less sexist rather than more so. (I wouldn’t deny that it still had a way to go, however.) Yeah, would anyone call this a sexist song? [Woman](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyEn9LIR9cI) ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/138 "2014-06-26T21:43:58Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > But my point was, again, I think there’s more implicit sexism in a man calling a woman giving him sexual favors ugly than the other way around because of historical and cultural factors. > > . So, if a man says something that _may be interpreted_ as sexist about a woman, we should presume that it _is_ because of historical and cultural factors? For example, if a gay man sings a song that focuses on the sexual pleasure he gets from another man, we should interpret that generously and not conclude that he thinks men are only good for sex. If a woman sings a song that focuses on the sexual pleasure she gets from a man, we should interpret that generously and not conclude that she thinks men are only good for sex. Same for lesbians. But, because of historical and cultural factors, if a man sings a song that focuses on the sexual pleasure he gets from a woman, we should interpret that ungenerously and conclude that he thinks women are only good for sex. Is this your position? Is the standard to conclude that something is sexist/racist only that it may be interpreted as sexist/racist or that that particular instance actually is sexist/racist? That sounds very niggardly. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/139 "2014-06-26T22:25:13Z")
Obviously not since, as I’ve already stated in this thread, there are songs about male sexual pleasure that I have no problem with. But, for what feels like the hundredth time, if the role of a woman in an act’s songs is limited exclusively to sex object/evil succubus, I think it’s reasonable to draw conclusions about their feelings on women in general. If I knew a guy who only talked about women in sexual terms every time we had a conversation, I probably wouldn’t assume he _wasn’t_ a douche. The whole “That’s just how guys are” argument doesn’t really hold water to me, since none of my interactions with other men are on that level. At least, not since I was an adolescent. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110/140 "2014-06-26T23:11:06Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > But, for what feels like the hundredth time, if the role of a woman in an act’s songs is limited exclusively to sex object/evil succubus, I think it’s reasonable to draw conclusions about their feelings on women in general. As artists, maybe, but not the songs themselves, since you’re saying that you have to infer the sexism. That would pretty clearly make the song not qualify for the stated purpose of this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-sexist-musical-act-thats-considered-great/691110.md?page=8)