# Most socially conformed generation ever? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2001, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-socially-conformed-generation-ever/59252 "2001-03-24T00:25:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Grim\_Beaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Grim\_Beaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Beaker)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2001, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-socially-conformed-generation-ever/59252/1 "2001-03-24T00:25:11Z")
Dopers, I recently came across a speech delivered by Charlton Heston to the Harvard student body. In it he makes the claim that this is the most socially conformed generation since. Here is a link to the speech: > **[Home - Harvard Law Today](https://today.law.harvard.edu)** > > Harvard Law School is one of the preeminent centers of legal education in the world. Led by a diverse and dedicated group of faculty and legal scholars, HLS provides unmatched opportunities to study law and related disciplines in a rigorous and... A selected quote from the speech: > [@](#): > > For example, I marched for civil rights with Dr. King in 1963 - long before Hollywood found it fashionable. But when I told an audience last year that white pride is just as valid as black pride or red pride or anyone else’s pride, they called me a racist. > > I’ve worked with brilliantly talented homosexuals all my life. But when I told an audience that gay rights should extend no further than your rights or my rights, I was called a homophobe. > > I served in World War II against the Axis powers. But during a speech, when I drew an analogy between singling out innocent Jews and singling out innocent gun owners, I was called an anti-Semite. > > Everyone I know knows I would never raise a closed fist against my country. > > But when I asked an audience to oppose this cultural persecution, I was compared to Timothy McVeigh. Some quotes from public figures critical of Charlton Heston can be found at this link: [http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/statements.html](http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/statements.html) I have 2 questions. 1. Is the demonification of Charlton Heston warranted? 2. How socially conformed is this generation in comparison to previous American generations? Grim\_Beaker ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2001, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-socially-conformed-generation-ever/59252/2 "2001-03-24T03:57:37Z")
Actors and politicians. Feh. > [@](#): > > I believe that we are again engaged in a great civil war, a cultural war that’s about to hijack your birthright to think and say what lives in your heart. > > I’ve come to understand that a cultural war is raging across our land, in which, with Orwellian fervor, certain acceptable thoughts and speech are mandated. > > But I am not afraid. If Americans believed in political correctness, we’d still be King George’s boys - subjects bound to the British crown. > > Martin Gross writes…“Underneath, the nation is roiling. Americans know something without a name is undermining the country, turning the mind mushy when it comes to separating truth from falsehood and right from wrong. And they don’t like it.” > > But I submit that you, and your counterparts across the land, are the most socially conformed and politically silenced generation since Concord Bridge. And as long as you validate that … and abide it … you are - by your grandfathers’ standards - cowards. Thank you for sharing this link with me, Beaker. Nice to see that Hollywood hasn’t lost its touch for heartwarming hokiness and galloping balderdash. Poor Chuck, who feels a need, given the soapbox, to get up and defend himself in front of several hundred Harvard grads who only know who he is from the NRA thing. “_Ben-Hur_? Oh, yeah, that’s the one with the chariot race? That’s on every Easter on TNT? So, which one was he?” “Charlie Brown, Charlie Brown…Why is everybody always picking on me?” Yo, Chuck, how can we be having a civil war and all be conforming, at the same time? Are we roiling, or are we cowards? Make up ya mind. Or get a better speechwriter. Sheesh. :rolleyes: And to address the OP, nah, the demonization of an old Hollywood actor is never warranted. Either elect him President, or leave him alone, but don’t yammer about his politics. And nah, we aren’t any more or less conforming than any other generation. Hey, I remember back in the early 1980s, when Yuppies and Dinks were first invented, there was widespread handwringing among the ex-hippie parents of these twenty-somethings. “Oh, no, they’re forsaking Levis and granola for button-down shirts and Perrier! Where did we go wrong? They’ve _gone Establishment_!!” But it turned out they weren’t any more or less conforming than any other generation. Could true conformists have come up with a Michael Milken, or the concept of a leveraged buyout? And now their children are graduating from Harvard, and are being told, by an actor, “You’re all cowards if you don’t stand up for your rights!” Well, hey, they’ll stand up for their rights as soon as it looks like someone’s gonna take them away, but until then, don’t expect them to stand in any picket lines. Their parents didn’t. But refusing to get involved in something that’s not your fight isn’t the same thing as being a conformist. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2001, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-socially-conformed-generation-ever/59252/3 "2001-03-24T06:02:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*For example, I marched for civil rights with Dr. King in 1963 - long before Hollywood found it fashionable. But when I told an audience last year that white pride is just as valid as black pride or red pride or anyone else’s pride, they called me a racist. > > I’ve worked with brilliantly talented homosexuals all my life. But when I told an audience that gay rights should extend no further than your rights or my rights, I was called a homophobe. > > I served in World War II against the Axis powers. But during a speech, when I drew an analogy between singling out innocent Jews and singling out innocent gun owners, I was called an anti-Semite. > > But when I asked an audience to oppose this cultural persecution, I was compared to Timothy McVeigh. > \*\* His first example almost resembles a good point. It is true that everyone should be able to take pride in their ethnic heritage. Unfortunately, the words “white pride” are associated with the wrong groups of people. Heston’s idea is generally correct, but he should make a more intelligent word choice. To his second point, it certainly seems that everybody who says “equal rights, not special rights” with regard to issues of homosexuality is using it as a catchphrase rather than a policy. People such as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson usually employ such words right beofre they explain why homosexuals shouldn’t be allowed to marry or adopt children. When my hometown passed laws that guaranteed homosexuals the right to have a job and own or rent a house or apartment, opponents claimed that it was an example of special rights. Finally, it is perfectly obvious why the third point is extremely offensive (at least I sure hope it is). A comparison between gun opponents and the Nazis in WWII is absurd. The Nazis killed millions of Jews and others based solely on ethnic hatred. No one in America wants to punish gun owners, and only a precious few people are willing to stand up for common-sense legislation that keeps guns away from criminals. Much as it pains me to say this, I find that these remarks are chillingly similar to those of McVeigh. Both McVeigh and Heston made sweeping and highly illogical statements about American culture being oppressive. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > 1. Is the demonification of Charlton Heston warranted? > > 2. How socially conformed is this generation in comparison to previous American generations? > > Grim\_Beaker > \*\* 1. Demonification? I believe that the statements at the link you gave are perfectly truthful and rational reactions to Heston’s speech, as I’ve explained above. 2. I’d agree with Duck Duck Goose on this one. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2001, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-socially-conformed-generation-ever/59252/4 "2001-03-24T07:11:56Z")
> [@](#): > > How socially conformed is this generation in comparison to previous American generations? Not much more, but it may seem that way sometimes. What with TV, the 'Net, cell phones, etc., communication is much, much easier… so we _hear_ about events that make things seem like everyone’s becoming of one mind. But it’s only because modern technology has made things more noticable. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2001, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-socially-conformed-generation-ever/59252/5 "2001-03-24T16:03:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ITR champion \* > **…and only a precious few people are willing to stand up for common-sense legislation that keeps guns away from criminals.** Sorry, couldn’t let this slide. Common-sense legislation to keep guns away from criminals was passed and completed when my grandparents were still small children. It’s illegal for felons to own guns. Period. You’d be really hard-pressed to find someone (who is not a felon) who opposes this. But the problem is that every piece of crap legislation that comes down the pike these days is labeled “Common-sense law to keep guns away from criminals” when in reality, the aim is to criminalize guns and take them out of the hands of EVERYONE, on the flawed reasoning that if you want to own a gun, then you’re a bad person and not responsible enough to own one. How does common-sense dictate that if a gun looks scary, it should be outlawed? How is it common-sense that purely cosmetic and nonfunctional components cause a gun to be illegal, when the identical gun without said components would be perfectly legal? Current gun legislation has nothing at all to do with common-sense, with crime-reduction, or with safety. > [@](#): > > \*\*Much as it pains me to say this, I find that these remarks are chillingly similar to those of McVeigh. Both McVeigh and Heston made sweeping and highly illogical statements about American culture being oppressive. > \*\* Just goes to show that the agenda justifies the tactics in many people’s eyes. You feel Charlton Heston was unfair when he compared arbitrary and unfair laws to Nazi Germany, and that’s bad because guns are bad. But then in your very next paragraph you compare him to a terrorist bomber because he advocates “resist[ing] cultural oppression.” And that’s ok because he likes guns and that, by extension, makes him bad. How is that any different? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2001, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-socially-conformed-generation-ever/59252/6 "2001-03-24T23:19:54Z")
Actually, I compared remarks made by Heston to those made by McVeigh. I think that Heston’s charge that Americans are conforming to an oppressive and unfair society is similar to how McVeigh described his victims as part of an “evil system”. I did not draw a comparison between Charlton Heston’s _actions_ and the bombing of a federal building. > [@](#): > > \*\*Sorry, couldn’t let this slide. Common-sense legislation to keep guns away from criminals was passed and completed when my grandparents were still small children. It’s illegal for felons to own guns. Period. You’d be really hard-pressed to find someone (who is not a felon) who opposes this. But the problem is that every piece of crap legislation that comes down the pike these days is labeled “Common-sense law to keep guns away from criminals” when in reality, the aim is to criminalize guns and take them out of the hands of EVERYONE, on the flawed reasoning that if you want to own a gun, then you’re a bad person and not responsible enough to own one \*\* The problem is that even though it is illegal for convicted felons to own guns, many felons are able to obtain them and then use them during repeat crimes. The gun lobby opposes mandatory background checks that are effective in preventing criminals from buying guns. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2001, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-socially-conformed-generation-ever/59252/7 "2001-03-24T23:40:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ITR champion \* > \*\*The problem is that even though it is illegal for convicted felons to own guns, many felons are able to obtain them and then use them during repeat crimes. The gun lobby opposes mandatory background checks that are effective in preventing criminals from buying guns. \*\* Correct. You don’t get to regulate a Constitutionally protected right like that. All the regulation that needs to be in place already is. You don’t get to treat me like a criminal, check my background, etc, because I choose to exercise one of the rights guaranteed to me as a foundation of this country. Unless you have probable cause to believe that I am a criminal, you don’t get to run a background check on me. Annoying, I know, but it’s this little thing called Due Process. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-socially-conformed-generation-ever/59252/8 "2001-03-25T00:21:34Z")
Joe Cool: So, its illegal for a felon to own a gun, but its also illegal to check to make sure someone isn’t a felon before you sell him a gun. Seems like a Catch-22 to me. What’s the point of passing a law if there’s no legal way to enforce it? And if the law isn’t enforcable, then it seems to me that we do not have all the necessary regulation. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-socially-conformed-generation-ever/59252/9 "2001-03-25T00:24:54Z")
Joe Cool: So, its illegal for a felon to own a gun, but its also illegal to check to make sure someone isn’t a felon before you sell him a gun. Seems like a Catch-22 to me. What’s the point of passing a law if there’s no legal way to enforce it? And if the law isn’t enforcable, then it seems to me that we do not have all the necessary regulation. I’m not much of a hawk on this issue, one way or the other, but it looks like there’s a bit of a flaw in your argument there. On the other hand, I think Mr. Heston’s statement show dramatic need for legislation banning actors from speaking in public. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-socially-conformed-generation-ever/59252/10 "2001-03-25T07:15:59Z")
Since when does a background check amount to treating you like a criminal? I really don’t understand that at all. Employers, including the government, can run background checks before they hire people. Is this treading on our rights, or just exercising common sense? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-socially-conformed-generation-ever/59252/11 "2001-03-25T20:39:20Z")
Dammit, double post! Would some kindly moderator snip that first one for me? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2001, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-socially-conformed-generation-ever/59252/12 "2001-03-26T15:52:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grim\_Beaker \* > I recently came across a speech delivered by Charlton Heston to the Harvard student body. In it he makes the claim that this is the most socially conformed generation since. Ignoring Mr. Heston’s positions, his basic premise is twofold: 1. People don’t disagree anymore, they demonize. Very true, with a _caveat_. _This has always been the norm in U.S. politics._ Hell, look at McCarthyism, the post-WWI Red Scare, the Civil War, etc., etc. Is it good? No. Is it the way things are? Yes. 2. People who demonize Chuck Heston are “socially conforming”. WTF? “Socially conforming” to what? “Society” agrees with Mr. Heston. Mr. Heston generally promotes the _status quo_. He opposes gay marriages? Gay marriages aren’t legal. He supports gun rights? Guns are legal. Sua