# Most Successful NFL Team: Packers, Steelers, Cowboys or other? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 5, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786 "2010-01-05T19:53:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/61 "2010-01-06T18:37:50Z")
At least we never killed a coach’s dog. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/62 "2010-01-06T18:59:47Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I was referring to the Vikings fans’ reaction to the no call, which included pelting the referee with a whiskey bottle, knocking him unconscious and sending him to the hospital for 11 stitches. Classy. Ahhh. I was only 10 at the time, I think I missed that one. 🙂 Classy, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/63 "2010-01-06T19:00:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > At least we never killed a coach’s dog. True dat. Perhaps such class crosses all fan boundaries. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/64 "2010-01-06T19:12:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > At least we never killed a coach’s dog. Devine admitted in his autobiography that it wasn’t true. “Rumors circulated that some disgruntled fans or anti-Devine people had shot my dog,” he said in the book. “I honestly don’t believe that was what happened.” “We weren’t so lucky with another one of our dogs,” Devine continued. “It was only a couple days later, ironically, when the dog wandered over to a nearby farm and began chasing the farmer’s ducks. The farmer, a neighbor who we knew very well, fired a gun at the dog, intending to scare him and get him away from his ducks. Well, the bullet happened to hit the dog and killed him. He had every right to shoot at the dog, and he knew it and I knew it. “Still, he felt terrible about what happened. I saw him walking toward our house, carrying the dead dog in his arms, crying uncontrollably. He kept saying, ‘I didn’t mean to kill him,’ and I knew that was true. Still more rumors spread, even though it was a total accident, and that night I was down at his house, playing basketball with his kids." “All those rumors reflected badly on the good people of Green Bay. Most of the people we met were genuine and nice to us…" ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/65 "2010-01-06T19:34:53Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Devine admitted in his autobiography that it wasn’t true. > > “Rumors circulated that some disgruntled fans or anti-Devine people had shot my dog,” he said in the book. “I honestly don’t believe that was what happened.” > > “We weren’t so lucky with another one of our dogs,” Devine continued. “It was only a couple days later, ironically, when the dog wandered over to a nearby farm and began chasing the farmer’s ducks. The farmer, a neighbor who we knew very well, fired a gun at the dog, intending to scare him and get him away from his ducks. Well, the bullet happened to hit the dog and killed him. He had every right to shoot at the dog, and he knew it and I knew it. > > “Still, he felt terrible about what happened. I saw him walking toward our house, carrying the dead dog in his arms, crying uncontrollably. He kept saying, ‘I didn’t mean to kill him,’ and I knew that was true. Still more rumors spread, even though it was a total accident, and that night I was down at his house, playing basketball with his kids." > > “All those rumors reflected badly on the good people of Green Bay. Most of the people we met were genuine and nice to us…" You’re aware that Devine changed his story on this, are you not? In the 70’s, he gave an interview to _Time_ magazine complating about the vicious treatment he’d gotten from Packer fans, and told a story about being awakened in the night by gunshots, went outside and found that one of his dogs had been shot. He let that version of his story sit and fester for decades before he told the revised version. Maybe the second version is true, but Devine himself is the one who originally implied his dog had been killed by disgruntled fans, which makes his statement about the “rumor” being “hurtful to the good people of Green Bay” highly disingenuous. He’s the one who _started_ that rumor. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/66 "2010-01-06T19:38:29Z")
So we are arguing over a fan who potentially killed a dog verus a fan who threw a bottle at a game and actually managed to strike an official wiith some amazing accuracy. I don’t think this is really a debate either side can win. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/67 "2010-01-06T19:49:22Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > So we are arguing over a fan who potentially killed a dog verus a fan who threw a bottle at a game and actually managed to strike an official wiith some amazing accuracy. I don’t think this is really a debate either side can win. 🙂 Not really an argument. I’m sure there are plenty of stories about rude, obnoxious, and maybe even assaulting Packer fans out there. As kenobi said, every team’s fans has its share of assholes. But what I find laughable is the urban legend gets believed by those who really want it to be true, yet seemingly discount physically injuring a ref. Devine tells two stories, and in the second one admits to lying the first time, yet Viking fans cling to the old story as if it’s the one that is true. I can’t admit to being surprised, of course. Next Dio will be telling us that he woke up in the bathtub covered in ice with a note saying his kidney was taken by Packer fans. Or that Mikey from the Life cereal commercials ate Pop Rocks and a Coke given to him by Packer fans and died. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/68 "2010-01-06T19:53:36Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Not really an argument. I’m sure there are plenty of stories about rude, obnoxious, and maybe even assaulting Packer fans out there. As kenobi said, every team’s fans has its share of assholes. > > But what I find laughable is the urban legend gets believed by those who really want it to be true, yet seemingly discount physically injuring a ref. Devine tells two stories, and in the second one admits to lying the first time, yet Viking fans cling to the old story as if it’s the one that is true. I can’t admit to being surprised, of course. Next Dio will be telling us that he woke up in the bathtub covered in ice with a note saying his kidney was taken by Packer fans. Or that Mikey from the Life cereal commercials ate Pop Rocks and a Coke given to him by Packer fans and died. I stopped taking Dio seriously about the Packers when he accused the 1963 Packers of being part of the Kennedy assasination. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/69 "2010-01-06T19:56:59Z")
I don’t discount the bottle. There’s drunk assholes in every stadium. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/70 "2010-01-06T19:59:14Z")
Where was Mark Chmura on the morning of 9/11? I’m not making any accusations, I’m just asking the question. I’ve heard some allegations, and questions remain. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/71 "2010-01-06T20:02:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Where was Mark Chmura on the morning of 9/11? I’m not making any accusations, I’m just asking the question. I’ve heard some allegations, and questions remain. Hanging out wiith Glenn Beck, most likley. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/72 "2010-01-06T20:02:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Where was Mark Chmura on the morning of 9/11? Headed to Minnesota for a party boat cruise. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/73 "2010-01-06T21:39:15Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > You know, I would say that, if you’re correct about his skills, that Ditka certainly doesn’t get enough credit. Because you’re one of the first Bears’ fans in a long line of Bears fans I’ve known, who thinks so. Almost every one of them, and the Tribune I read, agree it was Jim Finks who built the '85 Bears, and Ditka is best remembered, as far as drafting, for his Ricky Williams fiasco with the Saints. But thanks for the fresh perspective on things. It’s interesting and something I’ll take a look at if I get some free time. Finks was a pretty solid GM and he certainly brought in some key parts of that team but he was canned in 1982. A lot of quality players were brought in under Ditka after that kept the team competitive for another decade. There’s no question that Finks had some exceptional drafts but it’s revisionist history to claim Ditka had little impact. And for the record the Ricky Williams draft wasn’t a complete fiasco. The crazy pot stuff was not something that many would have predicted and Ricky has been amazingly effective and durable. Ditka seems to have been right about his skills, though he misjudged his personal issues. And the Saints of today can thank Ricky for their success since they landed 2 first round picks themselves when he was shipped to Miami. Ditka wasn’t an all-timer but he was good enough and the Bears were _great_ for pretty much all of Ditka’s reign, even after Buddy left. You have to stretch pretty hard to pretend he was nothing more than a figurehead. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/74 "2010-01-06T21:51:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Where was Mark Chmura on the morning of 9/11? I’m not making any accusations, I’m just asking the question. I’ve heard some allegations, and questions remain. You and Sarah would have a good time, I’m thinking. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/75 "2010-01-06T22:01:25Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Headed to Minnesota for a party boat cruise. 😉 That’s kind of weird. High school class trips are usually in the spring, not the fall. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/76 "2010-01-07T00:55:23Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Finks was a pretty solid GM and he certainly brought in some key parts of that team but he was canned in 1982. A lot of quality players were brought in under Ditka after that kept the team competitive for another decade. There’s no question that Finks had some exceptional drafts but it’s revisionist history to claim Ditka had little impact. I, very quickly, checked out the drafts the Bears had under Ditka, and outside of 1983 (Covert, Gault, Duerson, Thayer, and Dent), I’m not all that impressed. Granted it was just a quick look, but I’m just not seeing it. Granted I’m not looking all that hard, but I’m not seeing it. > [@Omni](#): > > And for the record the Ricky Williams draft wasn’t a complete fiasco. The crazy pot stuff was not something that many would have predicted and Ricky has been amazingly effective and durable. Ditka seems to have been right about his skills, though he misjudged his personal issues. I’m sure you’ll forgive me for not crediting Ditka too much for realizing that the NCAA career rushing leader, who held another 19 NCAA records, and won the Heisman might be pretty good. It’s not something that I would say would take a football genius to figure out. While part of the reason Ditka is maligned for it is that he didn’t know or care about the personal issues Ricky had, it was, in great measure, the price he paid for him. > [@Omni](#): > > And the Saints of today can thank Ricky for their success since they landed 2 first round picks themselves when he was shipped to Miami. Ditka didn’t make that trade. He was fired after going 3-13 in 1999. And, in getting 2 first rounders, they were only out the entire draft minus a first rounder. All for a guy who made ONE Pro Bowl. > [@Ditka](#): > > Ditka wasn’t an all-timer but he was good enough and the Bears were _great_ for pretty much all of Ditka’s reign, even after Buddy left. You have to stretch pretty hard to pretend he was nothing more than a figurehead. He’s not a figurehead. He’s a douche. And he took a team that should have been a dynasty akin to the 49ers or Steelers in the 70’s, and got them all of one Super Bowl. As a Packer fan, I’m glad he was the Bears coach. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/77 "2010-01-07T01:17:41Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I, very quickly, checked out the drafts the Bears had under Ditka, and outside of 1983 (Covert, Gault, Duerson, Thayer, and Dent), I’m not all that impressed. Granted it was just a quick look, but I’m just not seeing it. Granted I’m not looking all that hard, but I’m not seeing it. Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying Ditka was a world beater. His 1st rounders are consistently good and he found some good values late, he generally played it safe and avoided busts. My argument isn’t that Ditka is a stud, just that people who say he was crap are kidding themselves and letting his media persona color their judgment. There’s little evidence that he was in any way bad. > [@](#): > > I’m sure you’ll forgive me for not crediting Ditka too much for realizing that the NCAA career rushing leader, who held another 19 NCAA records, and won the Heisman might be pretty good. It’s not something that I would say would take a football genius to figure out. While part of the reason Ditka is maligned for it is that he didn’t know or care about the personal issues Ricky had, it was, in great measure, the price he paid for him. Again, you’re misconstruing what I’m saying. You’re calling the Ricky trade a fiasco. In retrospect it looks like it might not have been a bad move afterall. Ricky certainly was as good as advertised on the field. Again, I’m not saying Ditka was a genius just that it’s unfair to call that trade a disaster. > [@](#): > > Ditka didn’t make that trade. He was fired after going 3-13 in 1999. And, in getting 2 first rounders, they were only out the entire draft minus a first rounder. All for a guy who made ONE Pro Bowl. Again, you’re putting words in my mouth. Never said Ditka made that trade. I’m saying that Ricky wasn’t a bust and the Saints weren’t bankrupted by the first trade, nothing more. > [@](#): > > He’s not a figurehead. He’s a douche. And he took a team that should have been a dynasty akin to the 49ers or Steelers in the 70’s, and got them all of one Super Bowl. As a Packer fan, I’m glad he was the Bears coach. The Bears underachieved because of injury and uncommonly good competition. There wasn’t a single game where I walked away feeling like Ditka cost us a win. There wasn’t a single trade or draft pick in the 80s that hurt the teams chances in the playoffs. McMahon’s fragility killed us as did free agency in the 90s. It’s absurd to blame Ditka for that. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/78 "2010-01-07T01:36:22Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > There’s little evidence that he was in any way bad. 15-33 with the Saints. 6-6 post season record, with loses at Soldier Field. Maybe the expectations for him aren’t fair. Maybe the '85 team wasn’t that dominant and they crapped out in the playoffs in subsequent years because of a lack of talent. But, to me, it seemed pretty clear that the Bears in the 80’s never lived up to their talent and skill level. > [@Omni](#): > > Again, you’re misconstruing what I’m saying. You’re calling the Ricky trade a fiasco. In retrospect it looks like it might not have been a bad move afterall. Ricky certainly was as good as advertised on the field. Again, I’m not saying Ditka was a genius just that it’s unfair to call that trade a disaster. Ricky Williams is right up there with the likes of Ahman Green and Thomas Jones, two other 31/32 year old running backs, in career rushing yards, and has made one pro bowl. Those aren’t the stats, and not the career, of a guy you want to give up an entire draft and a first rounder the next year to move up and draft. > [@Omni](#): > > Again, you’re putting words in my mouth. Never said Ditka made that trade. I’m saying that Ricky wasn’t a bust and the Saints weren’t bankrupted by the first trade, nothing more. There is a vast chasm between “Bust” and “nowhere near worth an entire draft and an additional 1st rounder”. > [@Omni](#): > > The Bears underachieved because of injury and uncommonly good competition. There wasn’t a single game where I walked away feeling like Ditka cost us a win. There wasn’t a single trade or draft pick in the 80s that hurt the teams chances in the playoffs. McMahon’s fragility killed us as did free agency in the 90s. It’s absurd to blame Ditka for that. Of course it’s absurd to blame one coach for the failures of a team. If you’re happy with Ditka’s legacy, great. So am I. But thanks for opening my eyes a bit. It’s nice to have my prior thoughts challenged. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/79 "2010-01-07T02:35:42Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > 15-33 with the Saints. 6-6 post season record, with loses at Soldier Field. Captain Strawman, back it up a bit. All we’re discussing is if Ditka ruined the 80’s Bears. You said that people claimed it was Finks who is responsible for that era and not Ditka, that Ditka ruined it. My point about Ditka’s drafts simply refutes that assertion. I never said he was an epic coach and I never said he was a great coach with the Saints. The Bears playoff record does not reflect Ditka’s value to that team, of those 6 losses the issues with QB injuries play a much bigger role than any other factor. Ditka wasn’t perfect and I’m disappointed with what could have been, but anyone who tries to pin that underachievement on Ditka simply wasn’t watching the games back then. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786/80 "2010-01-07T02:37:41Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’m sure you’ll forgive me for not crediting Ditka too much for realizing that the NCAA career rushing leader, who held another 19 NCAA records, and won the Heisman might be pretty good. It’s not something that I would say would take a football genius to figure out. Careful, down this path lies Ron Dayne. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-successful-nfl-team-packers-steelers-cowboys-or-other/523786.md?page=5)