# Most things get better as time passes, so why does music get worse? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 8, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050 "2004-07-08T01:08:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/1 "2004-07-08T01:08:12Z")
Arguably, Classical music surpasses everything after it in quality. Why does music get worse as time passes? Nothing since the classical greats can inspire the same feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/2 "2004-07-08T01:09:45Z")
Actually the same seems to apply to computer games (at least as far as playability/enjoyment is concerned) Maybe it applies to all forms of creativity. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/3 "2004-07-08T01:21:06Z")
Selective, if unconsciously so, experience. We get to hear pretty much the best of the best of the composers from the earlier periods. The chaff has simply disappeared. When reviewing more recent works, we are inundated by all the drek that had a passing popularity, but no “legs.” If you’re listening to a radio station specializing in symphonic pieces, you will hear Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, etc. When you listen to an “oldies” Rock and Roll station, along with sublime compositions by Lennon and McCartney, you will still hear offerings by Sam the Sham and the Pharoahs (_Wooly Bully_) or the Ohio Express (_Yummy, yummy, yummy, I’ve got love in my tummy_). Your perceptions of _overall_ quality are clouded by the number of poor selections included in the totality of your experience. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/4 "2004-07-08T01:22:09Z")
Go listen to Lacrimosa’s _Elodia_, Therion’s _Vovin_, or Opeth’s _Blackwater Park_ and sincerely tell me that music is getting worse. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/5 "2004-07-08T01:39:42Z")
Also, we remember nostalgicly our youth, and try to shock our parents, so you get the common “This is crap. In MY day music was…” And I’m not sure why, but somehow you feel you’re ‘supposed’ to like classics. Look at literature - it’s been fasionable for ages to like shakespeare. (With some backlash, and double backlash). And to lesser extent, Dickens, etc. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/6 "2004-07-08T02:38:33Z")
Since this centers on music it fits better into Cafe Society. I’ll move it over. TVeblen, IMHO mod ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/7 "2004-07-08T03:17:09Z")
One must also remember that the composers of the classical and romantic periods didn’t make a lot of CDs. You can’t hear anything from that period unless someone much more recently deemed it worthy of recording, or at least performing in public. In centuries past there also wasn’t so much of a “music industry”, and the average person didn’t have much disposable income to spend on music. The lower class dance and bubblegum teen niches would have been filled by amateur family/local performers, few of whom would ever be heard or heard of by anyone outside their own village. I do not think that the likes of Britney Spears would, in any time period, have become a grand opera star, but in the modern world there is a role open to her between that and just singing folk ditties at parties or while doing her chores. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/8 "2004-07-08T03:42:02Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Go listen to Lacrimosa’s _Elodia_, Therion’s _Vovin_, or Opeth’s _Blackwater Park_ and sincerely tell me that music is getting worse. Therion is good stuff. I enjoy plenty of classical music as well as metal, but that’s neither here nor there. Music evolves, people only evolve as a species. Sure classical music is great, but they had less to work with then didn’t they? I imagine that you’ll never hear a 90 year old person saying that they love every song on the top 40 anytime soon. In case nobody ever told you, change is good (usually). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/9 "2004-07-08T03:57:55Z")
Mozart is great but I listen to the blues. I started doing this after I realized it was the component of rock music that I liked. Working backwards I guess. Not sure how to measure John Lee Hooker or Albert Collins against Amadeus but I can hear the genius in all of their work. Certainly Mozart requires astronomically greater skill to compose than any blues song, but it is ultimately the individual rifts within the song that I listen to. Creativity is hard to rate. Is a painting better or worse than a carved stone statue that takes more time to create? ---
**Author:** ![Beauty\_Personified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e480ec/32.png) [@Beauty\_Personified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beauty_Personified)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/10 "2004-07-08T05:57:14Z")
Another thing to consider is that there’s a great abundance of product today when it comes to “art” - film, literature, music, art… But most of the product is - as **tomndebb** called it - chaff. You have to wade through all the garbage to find the good stuff, but it’s there. (Ironically, the band Garbage is very good stuff, IMO.) And it doesn’t help that the entertainment industries aren’t very creative when it comes to promoting new and different things. Something becomes popular, and the industries looks for more of the same. IMO, time is also a big factor in determining what is and isn’t “great”. I love movies for example. I might _really_ like a new movie, and see it up to three times in the theatre. But I won’t call it one of my all-time favorites until I see it a few more times in the future. If it holds up, it’s got a good chance of getting on my list. Some movies that I really enjoyed the first time I saw them, I might totally forget after a couple of weeks. A movie has to be “memorable” in order to qualify for “greatness” in my book. There are movies that I enjoy the first time, but totally hate after a few viewings. And there are movies which, on first viewing, don’t do it for me; but after seeing them a couple more times, I realize are very good. Anyhoo… ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/11 "2004-07-08T07:13:43Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > Arguably, Classical music surpasses everything after it in quality. Why does music get worse as time passes? Nothing since the classical greats can inspire the same feelings. I don’t agree. There are plenty of musicians who are just looking to make a buck, sure, and plenty who are just looking to make fun, enjoyable, music. But there are still plenty who are making real art – experimenting, re-inventing, and creating new stuff that can move me more than any classical piece ever has. Yoko Kanno: she’s done music for lots of Japanese animation and videogames, and she’s an absolute genius. The music for _Cowboy Bebop_ in particular – any track on its own is catchy and interesting in the types of sounds she chooses to combine. When you listen to the soundtrack on the whole, though, you’re suddenly struck with the whole thing as a complete _vision_. Soul Coughing: there’s so much going on in their music that it’s almost impossible to keep track of it all. I listen to it and I just hear a catchy song with layers and layers of sound underneath; a friend of mine who’s more knowledgeable about music says that he listens to some of their songs and thinks, “I can’t believe they just _did_ that!” The Art of Noise: they got the most attention for being a pop band, and yes, the big “gimmick” is the technology. But I’ve been more moved by the album _In No Sense? Nonsense_ than I have by any full-length classical piece. Once you get past the opening version of “Dragnet” they did to pay for the record, the rest of the record is a coherent theme album, and it’s all about _speed_ and _movement_. You can play “The Four Seasons” for me, and I just have to nod and say, “Okay, I guess that’s ‘spring’ if you say so. But I don’t hear it.” But I listen to _In No Sense? Nonsense!_ and my brain gets filled with images, and I can tell _exactly_ what it’s about. And the computer game thing is just nostalgia + big budgets; it has nothing to do with creativity. You only remember the best games that were made during the genre’s heyday. And now, developers are forced to make huge things packed with features so they can compete with all the other “product” out on the market. You’re just not allowed to focus on a simple, coherent game idea anymore. But there are still people doing it – _The Sims_, _ICO_, _Diablo_, even _Gitaroo-Man_. _City of Heroes_ shows you can even make a MMORPG fun and simple instead of huge and bloated, as long as you concentrate on a core fun game. Even _Black & White_ was a marvelous idea, just executed badly. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/12 "2004-07-08T07:23:48Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > Arguably, Classical music surpasses everything after it in quality. Could you have started from a more arguable premise? > [@](#): > > Why does music get worse as time passes? I disagree, but I also don’t know why so many people make such a big deal of it. The music I enjoy is not popular (at least on a mass scale, everything has its niche these days). So what? I don’t need to hear it on the radio, I have hundreds upon hundreds of CDs and can listen to it any time I want. Most of my favorite artists are still active and touring. Even if popular music today is suckier than it has been at any point in history, it would have an imperceptible effect on me. Who gives a shit what other people like? > [@](#): > > Nothing since the classical greats can inspire the same feelings. This comment probably should have the world’s biggest, fattest “IMHO” attached to it. There is precisely one classical piece I’ve heard to date that inspires feelings in me beyond “wow, that’s big,” and that’s the _Clair de Lune_, which gets me pretty close to tears most of the time. But I can name you dozens of songs by contemporary musicians which I’ve heard many more times that still get reactions of equal depth from me. ---
**Author:** ![Israfel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/87869e/32.png) [@Israfel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Israfel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/13 "2004-07-08T07:37:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There is precisely one classical piece I’ve heard to date that inspires feelings in me beyond “wow, that’s big,” and that’s the _Clair de Lune_, which gets me pretty close to tears most of the time. So…what was the other classical piece you’ve heard? 😃 And did I just see Yoko Kanno mentioned shortly after “experimenting?” And wait, did someone just suggest that Therion was a modern answer to Beethoven et al? The musical illiteracy demonstrated in this thread is a crime, I say! A crime! [/snob][/snarky] well, uh…anyway ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/14 "2004-07-08T07:49:12Z")
> [@Israfel](#): > > So…what was the other classical piece you’ve heard? 😃 The original version of that sentence included a comment that I haven’t heard a ton of classical music. I see that I didn’t put it back in after editing. If it looks like I was saying I’ve listened to lots of it and rejected most, that wasn’t what I was going for. It’s one of those old circular things: I imagine I could find more classical music I like if I listened to more of it, but I don’t like most of it so I don’t seek it out. Anyway, thinking about it some more I’ve been wowed by **Stardust** when I’ve heard her sing (well, half of) the flower duet from Lakme and a piece by Honegger. ---
**Author:** ![Israfel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/87869e/32.png) [@Israfel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Israfel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/15 "2004-07-08T07:56:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The original version of that sentence included a comment that I haven’t heard a ton of classical music. I see that I didn’t put it back in after editing. If it looks like I was saying I’ve listened to lots of it and rejected most, that wasn’t what I was going for. Nah, I was just joking around. I know that not everyone has the time or inclination to get into classical music. I’m still woefully ignorant of jazz, even though I’m sure there are a lot of gems to unearth in the genre. Oh well, hopefully someday… ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/16 "2004-07-08T12:40:48Z")
I don’t know if music is getting worse, since time is a filter – it removes the bad music from circulation. Even going back to the 30s, you’ll still hear Gershwin or Porter or Warren or Kern, but the vast majority of songs from that time are forgotten. Thus, the average level of song quality appears much higher: you’re getting the cream, but not the sour milk. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/17 "2004-07-08T13:10:28Z")
Where are the Leonardos, the Titians, the Holbeins of today? Who is building the Penn Stations, the Taj Mahals, the Hampton Courts? “No-body,” to quote Bert Williams. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/18 "2004-07-08T16:37:52Z")
For those who think music today is getting progressively worse: A band called [Ayreon](http://www.ayreon.com/projects/project.php?project_id=1) just released an album called _The Human Equation_. Over 100 minutes and 2 CDs, it tells a story of a man who was in a car accident and is reliving his life. Some of the parts played by different musicians include his mother and father, Fear, Pride, Love, and Rage. All these other characters comment on his life as he relives it. Truly inspired and amazing stuff. Oh yeah, and the albums that **ultrafilter** listed as well. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/19 "2004-07-08T17:04:22Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Where are the Leonardos, the Titians, the Holbeins of today? > > Who is building the Penn Stations, the Taj Mahals, the Hampton Courts? > > “No-body,” to quote Bert Williams. I think we can extend **tomndebb** ’s hypothesis – which is along the lines of the famous quote “90% of everything is crap” – to all art forms. Probably most renaissance painters were hacks, banging out portraits to make a buck. And they’re justifiably forgotten. Nondescript buildings get torn down; the good ones get declared national landmarks (except Penn Station). There’s a corollary that applies to music, though: pop music (good or bad) is getting simpler and simpler. Whenever I listen to anything from the Big Band era, I’m amazed that this was the Britney Spears of the 1930s. You’re not going to find a garage band that can play One O’Clock Jump. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050/20 "2004-07-08T17:17:47Z")
> [@Israfel](#): > > Nah, I was just joking around. I know that not everyone has the time or inclination to get into classical music. I’m still woefully ignorant of jazz, even though I’m sure there are a lot of gems to unearth in the genre. Oh well, hopefully someday… Time or inclination? Well, I guess you could say that “not liking it much” does reflect something of a disinclination. Classical music is nice for those who like it, but I can’t understand the attitude that considers it “better” than any other form of music. To me, it’s just uninteresting. It’s far less “difficult” than most of the music I listen to (largely jazz) and while a symphony is long and complex, the music itself usually strikes me as fairly boring and simple. It’s just a difference in taste. To me the rhythms and harmonies in classical music seem rather dull and played out by now - music has gotten past them. I guess for a lot of people they retain their evocative power. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-things-get-better-as-time-passes-so-why-does-music-get-worse/254050.md?page=2)