# Most underrated leaders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950 "2013-04-17T17:13:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/21 "2013-04-18T02:39:09Z")
Charles de Gaulle. Agree or disagree with some of the things he did, he stepped into power at a time when France was at its lowest and rebuilt the country into a great power. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/22 "2013-04-18T03:35:46Z")
Eventually, despite being a less than stellar human being, Brian Mulroney will be regarded as a successful Prime Minister of Canada. I’ve always thought Ulysses S. Grant was probably the most underrated human being in the history of America. He was not as bad a President as he is blamed for being. He was handed a Godawful mess and a country that for the most part had no interest in cooperating with him, and at least got the Fifteenth Amendment passed. This after he had been unquestionably the most underrated general in the history of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/23 "2013-04-18T03:54:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Charles de Gaulle. Agree or disagree with some of the things he did, he stepped into power at a time when France was at its lowest and rebuilt the country into a great power. Speaking of French Presidents, I believe Valéry Giscard d’Estaing deserves a good word as well, who developed France’s TGV high speed rail system and also its system of nuclear power plants along with strong support for European unity. Shame he legalized abortion though… > [@RickJay](#): > > Eventually, despite being a less than stellar human being, Brian Mulroney will be regarded as a successful Prime Minister of Canada. > > I’ve always thought Ulysses S. Grant was probably the most underrated human being in the history of America. He was not as bad a President as he is blamed for being. He was handed a Godawful mess and a country that for the most part had no interest in cooperating with him, and at least got the Fifteenth Amendment passed. This after he had been unquestionably the most underrated general in the history of the world. I have to agree. President Grant pushed for civil rights of blacks not to be seen again until at least the Kennedy and probably the Johnson presidency. Truly ahead of his time. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/24 "2013-04-18T04:48:37Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > As for the coup in Iran being about oil, that was certainly the motivation for the British involvement there. However Ike had little reason to stick his neck out for British oil concerns and in fact during his Presidency he proved that British oil concerns were not enough to get him to go along with British desires. Churchill successfully made the argument that Mossadeg was on a collision course in which he had spurned the West and would naturally, given his socialist policies, eventually move toward the Soviets as allies despite earlier statements against Soviet style communism. He certainly would not be the first leader in the Cold War to move toward the Soviet sphere. Whether it would have happened or not I do not know, but it seems a lot more likely to me that that is the argument that swayed Ike. Well you have identified the problems in a nutshell. Ike and his advisors seemed to see communists all over the world even when they were not there. Castro was not communist. Nasser sent Communists to jail. Ho Chi Minh was a Vietnamese nationalist. Mossedeq was socialist at best. Yet in Ike and his advisors view, they were all commies. And that had very deletarious and far reaching consequences for the US. [QUOTE=RickJay] I’ve always thought Ulysses S. Grant was probably the most underrated human being in the history of America. He was not as bad a President as he is blamed for being. He was handed a Godawful mess and a country that for the most part had no interest in cooperating with him, and at least got the Fifteenth Amendment passed. This after he had been unquestionably the most underrated general in the history of the world. [/QUOTE] I agree that US Grant was an underrated President, though marks off for the panic of 1873. I do not think he is underrated (at least outside the US) as a general. He is generally thought of as the first modern general. For monarchs, I think Henry VII is underrated. A good King all around. Henry VIII was not a good king, but certainly a very influential one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/25 "2013-04-18T05:01:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Charles de Gaulle. Agree or disagree with some of the things he did, he stepped into power at a time when France was at its lowest and rebuilt the country into a great power. Then why did it not **become** a great power? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/26 "2013-04-18T05:05:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Then why did it not **become** a great power? How “great” do you have to be, to be a great power? France might not be a superpower but than it only has one-fifth the population of the United States while having extensive economic and cultural influence throughout the world. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/27 "2013-04-18T05:22:27Z")
I’m often surprised by how under appreciated F. W. de Klerk of South Africa is. To be true to one’s cause through years of strife like Mandela is a noble thing, but to acknowledge that the whole basis of one’s political path is a flawed one _and then do something about it_, is a far more difficult thing to do as a leader. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/28 "2013-04-18T05:44:48Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > How “great” do you have to be, to be a great power? France might not be a superpower but than it only has one-fifth the population of the United States while having extensive economic and cultural influence throughout the world. No more than it had when DeGaulle stepped in, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/29 "2013-04-18T05:47:17Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > I’m often surprised by how under appreciated F. W. de Klerk of South Africa is. To be true to one’s cause through years of strife like Mandela is a noble thing, but to acknowledge that the whole basis of one’s political path is a flawed one _and then do something about it_, is a far more difficult thing to do as a leader. Do you realize both de Klerk and Mandela are still alive? Some time or times within the next 10 years, there will be some interesting retrospection. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/30 "2013-04-18T05:51:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Do you realize both de Klerk and Mandela are still alive? > . Yes. I’m pretty sure the OP did not disqualify retired leaders. ---
**Author:** ![David\_H\_Singanas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@David\_H\_Singanas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_H_Singanas)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/31 "2013-04-18T09:49:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And I believe he even had that reputation at the time. “You hear about the new Eisenhower doll? You wind it up and it does nothing for eight years!” I remember Ike’s fiercely anti-communist Secretary of State John Foster Dulles who wanted the U.S. to intervene in almost every foreign conflict. Ike was quoted as saying: “For heaven sake, John, don’t do something!” ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/32 "2013-04-18T10:09:04Z")
Tanzania’a Julius Nyerere was a classic failed socialist but a noted and respected economist. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/33 "2013-04-18T13:38:22Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Tanzania’a Julius Nyerere was a classic failed socialist but a noted and respected economist. From Wikipedia Nyere entry “During the first years Nyerere created a single-party system and used “preventive detention” to eliminate trade unions and opposition. Nyerere issued the Arusha Declaration, which outlined his socialist vision of ujamaa that came to dominate his policies. The policies led to a collapsing economy, systematic corruption, and unavailability of goods. In the early 1970s Nyerere ordered his security forces to forcibly transfer much of the population to collective farms and, because of opposition from villagers, often burned villages down. The campaign pushed the nation to the brink of starvation and made it dependent on foreign food aid.” He was one of the worst leaders in the world, he impoverished his nation for no good purpose. His only value is of a bad example. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/34 "2013-04-18T14:11:25Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Richard Nixon: Possibly the last US President to date to take the initiative rather than react to events, the opening up of China, getting the US off the gold standard, attempting healthcare reform etc. Yes, Nixon is underrated. However, he is also and at the same time overrated, in that people do not remember him as a criminal. They remember him as a “crook,” that’s all, because of Watergate, but that was like nailing Al Capone for tax evasion. Nobody seems to remember Chile, or Cambodia, or [Nixon sabotaging the Paris Peace Talks in 1968 just so the war would still be there as an issue for him to run against in November.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=685217&highlight=nixon) Nixon . . . Just . . . [Nixon.](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon) “This administration has proved that it is utterly incapable of cleaning out the corruption which has completely eroded it and reestablishing the confidence and faith of the American people in the morality and honesty of their government employees.” (1951 – he meant the **Truman** Administration. 😛 ) “The Jewish cabal is out to get me.” “The greatest honor history can bestow is the title of peacemaker.” “You know, it’s a funny thing, every one of the bastards that are out for legalizing marijuana are Jewish. What the Christ is the matter with the Jews, Bob? What is the matter with them? I suppose it is because most of them are psychiatrists.” “Many Jews in the Communist conspiracy. … Chambers and Hiss were the only non-Jews. … Many thought that Hiss was. He could have been a half. … Every other one was a Jew — and it raised hell for us. But in this case, I hope to God he’s not a Jew.” “The Jews are irreligious, atheistic, immoral bunch of bastards.” “Well, when the President does it, that means that it is not illegal.” “I don’t think a woman should be in any government job whatever. I mean, I really don’t. The reason why I do is mainly because they are erratic. And emotional.” “As long as I’m sitting in the chair, there’s not going to be any Jew appointed to that court. [No Jew] can be right on the criminal-law issue.” “Nixon: The only place where you and I disagree … is with regard to the bombing. You’re so goddamned concerned about civilians and I don’t give a damn. I don’t care.” “Kissinger: I’m concerned about the civilians because I don’t want the world to be mobilized against you as a butcher.” “What are our schools for if not for indoctrination against communism?” “I have the greatest affection for them [Negroes] but I know they’re not going to make it for 500 years. They aren’t. You know it, too. The Mexicans are a different cup of tea. They have a heritage. At the present time they steal, they’re dishonest, but they do have some concept of family life. They don’t live like a bunch of dogs, which the Negroes do live like.” “You know what happened to the Romans? The last six Roman emperors were fags. Neither in a public way. You know what happened to the popes? They were layin’ the nuns; that’s been goin’ on for years, centuries. But the Catholic Church went to hell three or four centuries ago. It was homosexual, and it had to be cleaned out. That’s what’s happened to Britain. It happened earlier to France. Let’s look at the strong societies. The Russians. Goddamn, they root 'em out. They don’t let 'em around at all. I don’t know what they do with them. Look at this country. You think the Russians allow dope? Homosexuality, dope, immorality, are the enemies of strong societies. That’s why the Communists and left-wingers are clinging to one another. They’re trying to destroy us. I know Moynihan will disagree with this, [Attorney General John] Mitchell will, and Garment will. But, goddamn, we have to stand up to this.” “There are times when an abortion is necessary. I know that. When you have a black and a white. Or a rape.” ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/35 "2013-04-18T14:13:05Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I have to agree. President Grant pushed for civil rights of blacks not to be seen again until at least the Kennedy and probably the Johnson presidency. Truly ahead of his time. Even more so for AmerIndians. He pushed a radical change in policy in order to bring them into the American fold as normal citizens, offered education and economic assistance, and worked to stop the numerous abuses of Indian Agents and the like. He didn’t entirely succeed - corruption inevitably began to appear again, violence broke out on both sides, and the lands many tribes ended on were just too poor to adequately sustain them. Still, it marked a sea-change in American policy towards its Native Peoples and put us all on a much better path. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/36 "2013-04-18T14:20:03Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Yes. I’m pretty sure the OP did not disqualify retired leaders. Not suggesting de Klerk does not belong in the thread; it is just amazing that both he and Mandela, who were both so old when in office, are alive still. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/37 "2013-04-18T14:28:03Z")
I admit to a certain prejudice towards President Grant. As a son of the South and native Atlantan, I was taught by my grandparents to hate him. Fortunately, I am not a quick study at hatred. Nevertheless, I have always viewed him in a dim light. Based upon what I have read here, I will review the data available and am prepared to alter my perspective on his presidency. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/38 "2013-04-18T16:07:30Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > I admit to a certain prejudice towards President Grant. As a son of the South and native Atlantan, I was taught by my grandparents to hate him. Fortunately, I am not a quick study at hatred. Nevertheless, I have always viewed him in a dim light. Based upon what I have read here, I will review the data available and am prepared to alter my perspective on his presidency. Message board posts aren’t the best way here. I can point you to some biographical work if you like. Grant was a man of numerous and extreme talents. Aside from introducing the Arabian breed to the United States and posessing exceptional horsemanship, he toured the world, helped establish a peace treaty between China and Japan, and wrote one of the seminal works on the Civil War. The latter is considered exceedingly well done despite having some mistakes due to time and a lack of documentation and is considered to much wider in scope and less influenced by personal bias compared to most accounts. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/39 "2013-04-21T23:04:28Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > He (Julius Nyerere) was one of the worst leaders in the world, he impoverished his nation for no good purpose. His only value is of a bad example. But he did topple the Idi Amin regime. That counts as much as making his own country rich and progessive, right? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/40 "2013-04-22T01:46:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Then why did it not **become** a great power? Let’s see someone try to invade them now. Le boome grande avec les nuques. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950.md?page=3)