# Most underrated leaders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950 "2013-04-17T17:13:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/81 "2013-04-25T12:11:45Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#): > > It was president Truman who initiated desegregation of the military in 1948, (Executive Order 9981). Which is why I wrote that Eisenhower **implemented** [desegregation of the military.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenhower#Civil_rights) > [@](#): > > While President Truman had begun the process of desegregating the Armed Forces in 1948, actual implementation had been slow. Eisenhower made clear his stance in his first State of the Union message in February 1953, saying “I propose to use whatever authority exists in the office of the President to end segregation in the District of Columbia, including the Federal Government, and any segregation in the Armed Forces”. When he encountered opposition from the services, he used government control of military spending to force the change through, stating “Wherever Federal Funds are expended … , I do not see how any American can justify … a discrimination in the expenditure of those funds”. When Robert B. Anderson, Eisenhower’s first Secretary of the Navy argued that the Navy must recognize the “customs and usages prevailing in certain geographic areas of our country which the Navy had no part in creating”, Eisenhower overruled him: “We have not taken and we shall not take a single backward step. There must be no second class citizens in this country.” Credit where it’s due. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/82 "2013-04-25T18:28:31Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Which is why I wrote that Eisenhower **implemented** [desegregation of the military.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenhower#Civil_rights) > > Credit where it’s due. And credit you shall have good sir. I stand corrected. From my point of view, Truman implemented his decision three months before the cantankerous election of 1948. Gutty move even if it didn’t amount to much. Eisenhower was more pragmatic and had four years (then eight) in which to get quietly but eliminate military apartheid. So the story is more complicated then I thought. Ignorance fought ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/83 "2013-04-25T18:45:25Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#): > > And credit you shall have good sir. > > I stand corrected. > > From my point of view, Truman implemented his decision three months before the cantankerous election of 1948. Gutty move even if it didn’t amount to much. Eisenhower was more pragmatic and had four years (then eight) in which to get quietly but eliminate military apartheid. > > So the story is more complicated then I thought. Ignorance fought I meant credit to Eisenhower, not to me. Sure, Truman deserves accolades as well, I didn’t mean to imply that Truman didn’t play a vital role in the desegregation of the military. But it’s also a feather in Eisenhower’s cap. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/84 "2013-04-25T19:25:58Z")
I definitely agree with John Major and GHB. For me they actually embodied the strongest elements of conservatism, in that a fair degree of caution is required when running such an important concern as a nation-state. This is also why radical conservatism is such a bust. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/85 "2013-04-25T22:08:49Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > So Kruschev was a crazy war-monger, while American Presidents do everything they can to promote peace. Got it. :dubious: > > Debating JFK performance may be a hijack here (need new thread? links to old threads?) but the idea that JFK cleverly saved the world from nuclear holocaust is largely self-created myth. > > At the beginning of the missile crisis, Kruschev was ready to trade the missiles in Cuba for the missiles in Turkey. The crisis ended when JFK agreed to trade the missiles in Cuba for the missiles in Turkey. What happened in between was largely about JFK arrogance and posturing. Absolutely correct-and Kennedy pushing Kruschev into a corner guaranteed the fall of Kruschev-which set back USA-Russia relations for decades.Kennedy was a man totally unqualified to be president-he knw nothing of world history, and wasn’t very bright. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/86 "2013-04-26T02:27:16Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Which is why I wrote that Eisenhower **implemented** [desegregation of the military.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenhower#Civil_rights) > > Credit where it’s due. I’m a big fan of Eisenhower’s. But on this issue, I think it’s fair to say that Eisenhower was finishing up a job that Truman had already gotten past the halfway point. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/87 "2013-04-26T12:45:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m a big fan of Eisenhower’s. But on this issue, I think it’s fair to say that Eisenhower was finishing up a job that Truman had already gotten past the halfway point. They should share credit. I never meant to imply that it was all Eisenhower’s doing, but he did much of the work, the nitty-gritty, if you will. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/88 "2013-04-26T12:52:26Z")
I think history will judge Gordon Brown’s PMship lest harshly. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/89 "2013-04-26T19:04:20Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > For monarchs, I think Henry VII is underrated. A good King all around. Henry VIII was not a good king, but certainly a very influential one. Gotta disagree on that one. Henry VII was certainly good at surviving and being solvent (ne mean feat, that), but his methods for achieving that were, to put it mildly, regrettable. I recently read a modern bio of him which made the case that he was a thoroughly rotten king pretty persuasively: _Winter King: The Dawn of Tudor England_ by Thomas Penn. They depict a king who behaved more like a mafia don than a monarch - nakedly having his rutheless agents trump up fake accusations against people and then selling them a “pardon” after a trip to his torture chambers to soften 'em up. As a method of taxation it left a lot to be desired. Allegedly, people celebrated at his death, hoping his son would be an improvement! ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/90 "2013-04-26T19:42:56Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > … > > While I didn’t care much for him domestically as president, I have very high regard for his handling of the 1991 war with Iraq. His handling of it on all levels stands in stark contrast with the ineptitude with which Bush Jr. handled things in 2003. Diplomatically he was able to secure the backing of the entire world against Iraq, culminating with a UN resolution authorizing the use of force to eject Iraq from Kuwait should they not withdrawal. > … And his passage of the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). Which has changed my life and helped many of us in wheelchairs. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/91 "2013-04-27T04:34:42Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Gotta disagree on that one. Henry VII was certainly good at surviving and being solvent (ne mean feat, that), but his methods for achieving that were, to put it mildly, regrettable. > > I recently read a modern bio of him which made the case that he was a thoroughly rotten king pretty persuasively: _Winter King: The Dawn of Tudor England_ by Thomas Penn. They depict a king who behaved more like a mafia don than a monarch - nakedly having his rutheless agents trump up fake accusations against people and then selling them a “pardon” after a trip to his torture chambers to soften 'em up. > > As a method of taxation it left a lot to be desired. Allegedly, people celebrated at his death, hoping his son would be an improvement! He brought stability to England after decades of war. He broke the power of the aristocracy which was one of the main reasons for said instability. He also restored the treasury. His methods were harsh, but he did what was necessary. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/92 "2013-04-27T04:56:51Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > He brought stability to England after decades of war. He broke the power of the aristocracy which was one of the main reasons for said instability. He also restored the treasury. His methods were harsh, but he did what was necessary. He may have left the monarchy stronger than when he found it - but that does not mean he left England better. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/93 "2013-04-27T16:06:12Z")
While I agree that John Major’s administration is underrated, I’m not sure he deserves credit for staying “the hell out of the Euro”, as the OP puts it. As I recall, the Major administration spent an enormous amount of money trying to stay in the ERM (a precursor of the euro), despite the fact that the currency was overvalued relative to the Deutsche Mark. They got found out by the market. Black Wednesday ensued, or “White Wednesday”, according to those who considered the withdrawal from the ERM a good thing, in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/94 "2013-04-27T18:48:47Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > While I agree that John Major’s administration is underrated, I’m not sure he deserves credit for staying “the hell out of the Euro”, as the OP puts it. As I recall, the Major administration spent an enormous amount of money trying to stay in the ERM (a precursor of the euro), despite the fact that the currency was overvalued relative to the Deutsche Mark. They got found out by the market. Black Wednesday ensued, or “White Wednesday”, according to those who considered the withdrawal from the ERM a good thing, in the long run. IIRC the Maastricth negotiations where the British got an exception to the Euro was before the events of Black Wednesday ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/95 "2013-04-27T19:49:40Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > IIRC the Maastricth negotiations where the British got an exception to the Euro was before the events of Black Wednesday OK, but the British opt-outs were not necessarily due to John Major, who had a slim majority. He had to appease various factions. The government almost collapsed over the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/96 "2013-04-28T19:38:42Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Is this a popular opinion only, or one which military historians also hold? It certainly isn’t the opinion of modern historians of the Civil War but there was a time when it certainly was. Peter Novick writing of the creation of the historical profession mentioned how most of its founders were either slave owners or the children of slave owners. For example, in 1910(IIRC) the head of the history departments of every Ivy League university was the son of a southern slave owner, Woodrow Wilson being the most famous. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/97 "2013-04-28T19:56:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For example, in 1910(IIRC) the head of the history departments of every Ivy League university was the son of a southern slave owner, Woodrow Wilson being the most famous. Even apart from that, many of the post-Civil War works were written by Confederate officials and military officers, and even with the best of intentions they were unlikely to be completely unbiased. And some most definitely did _not_ have the best of intentions. Many were involved in building the Lost Cause mythology to justify the rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950/98 "2013-06-02T04:53:50Z")
I also think that Nero did an okay job as Emperor, he certainly dealt well with challenges handed him, such as the Great Fire and rebellions in Judea and Britannia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-underrated-leaders/655950.md?page=4)