# Most unenjoyably Pretentious Movies **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 24, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171 "2004-03-24T19:16:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/221 "2004-03-31T02:59:17Z")
Like I said, I’m willing to accept that what I’m reading in your posts isn’t what you’re trying to say. Since I’ve never before had such a total disconect between what someone was saying with what I was hearing, I’m disinclined to believe that the problems lie on my end of the conversation. I can’t promise to avoid you in every future thread we both find ourselves posting to, but I’ll do my best to ignore what reads, to me, as a supremely arrogant and condescending tone. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/222 "2004-03-31T03:04:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Like I said, I’m willing to accept that what I’m reading in your posts isn’t what you’re trying to say. Since I’ve never before had such a total disconect between what someone was saying with what I was hearing, I’m disinclined to believe that the problems lie on my end of the conversation. I can’t promise to avoid you in every future thread we both find ourselves posting to, but I’ll do my best to ignore what reads, to me, as a supremely arrogant and condescending tone. And he gets in a parting shot! I’d ask you to drop the accusations, since your impression of me and my impression of you have both been shown to be wildly inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/223 "2004-03-31T03:06:46Z")
Or how about, instead of “ignoring” such a tone, which isn’t entirely free of condescension either, you try to reconsider it, with a little benefit of the doubt? Just as a thought experiment. I’ll try, likewise, to reconsider your threads when they seem disproportionately reactionary. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/224 "2004-03-31T03:14:15Z")
VERY interesting take on this by a friend of mine. [http://www.cinemadox.com/prolegomena.html](http://www.cinemadox.com/prolegomena.html) ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/225 "2004-03-31T03:37:16Z")
VERY interesting take on this by a friend of mine. [http://www.cinemadox.com/prolegomena.html](http://www.cinemadox.com/prolegomena.html) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/226 "2004-03-31T03:42:08Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > And he gets in a parting shot! > > I’d ask you to drop the accusations, since your impression of me and my impression of you have both been shown to be wildly inaccurate. Speaking of which, I’d intended that last post to be an olive branch, not an opportunity to take another swipe at you. I apologize; I should have phrased it better. Good link, too. ---
**Author:** ![Tygr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df788c/32.png) [@Tygr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tygr)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/227 "2004-03-31T19:05:43Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The ambiguity serves the purpose better than clarity. [Gavin Millarrrrr](http://arago4.tn.utwente.nl/stonedead/publications/sketches/gavin-millarrrrr.html), is that you? “The points are frozen, the beast is dead… The clarity is devastating. But where is the ambiguity? Over there in a box.” See, that’s being pretentious, with the usual accompanying veneer of intellectual elitism. Yes, I know it’s Python, and satire. What’s infuriating to us plebes-of-the-multiplex is when such things are said in full seriousness. That [quote of Ebert’s] ([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4697614&postcount=178](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4697614&postcount=178)) is a great example. When he cops to thinking to himself, “You are saying more about yourself than about the film,” he’s displaying (obliquely) that same intellectual arrogance that Dr. Millarrrrr displays. Snottiness of the first water. Those of us that do go to the movies to be entertained and for escapism, and LIKE big-budget action summer blockbusters don’t deserve the scorn of cineastes whose only credential is that they’ve seen more movies and therefore Know Better. We don’t WANT to “dig” through movies for a message. And besides, there’s no way for us to determine, in advance, if that’s what were going to have to do, other than observing that the film is playing at a theater that spent the 70’s showing porn. I’d submit that most of us that liked The Matrix appreciated the small amount of armchair existentialist philosophy that was at the core of a nifty special-effects laden plot. It made us think a _little_ bit, and that’s all we wanted to do. And we liked The Sixth Sense, including the ending, because it was a mystery that we hadn’t seen before. Which brings me to why I think cineastes, including professional movie reviewers, should be approached with a bit of caution. They’ve seen waaaaay more movies than the rest of us have, and therefore bring a much broader range of experience to the movie viewing experience. They can vociferously dismiss a movie for being derivative, but if it’s derivative of a 35-year-old Czech documentary film that played for 2 days in four cities in the US, well… All they’re really doing is pissing on the parade. And I think too many of them get a thrill out of doing that. I’d rather see them use their powers for good. If someone liked “The Magnificent Seven”, they should tell them about Kurasawa’s film and why they should watch it. It benefits no-one for them to dismiss it as Hollywood rip-off tripe. As for the OP, I think I’d have to submit _ **Election** _. Unpleasant plot and unpleasant characters. I remember feeling like maybe there WAS a message in the subtext, but I couldn’t get past the unpleasantness to “get” it. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/228 "2004-04-01T13:24:45Z")
After reading through this thread and disagreeing with the majority posters and roughly siding with lissener’s point if not his presentation, I think I finally have a movie that I think is pretentious. _Memento_. It doesn’t fit the OP’s definition, because I liked the movie. Very much, actually. But then, I am still awstruck by the OP’s calling a movie pretentious by being pretentious, “Look at how well I can deconstruct _Pi_!” [paraphrased] I would also put _Identity_ in this category. When I talk to people about Mullholland Drive, they never say, “Did you get it?” as a lead in to their own private explanation. Yet any time I talk to people about Memento, “You got what was happening, right?” Yes, from the first scene which hit me over the head like The Scarlett Letter’s pathetic symbolism. That’s pretentious. There are movies I like, and movies I think were good, but they don’t necessarily line up like that. Memento I liked, but I don’t know that it was good. Eraserhead was good, but I don’t think I like it all that much. Identity I didn’t like and didn’t think it was good, though it was terribly close to being a good movie. For me, a good movie _needs_ explaining and discussion. Themes need to be found. The plot, if there is one, should be arguable (or, if satire, transparent). Characters’ motivations can be transparent if it is satire, or murky if it is not. “It was funny,” “It was exciting,” “There was a neat twist in it…” these are all cues that I liked a movie, but that doesn’t make it good. Not all art takes work. But good art, I think, does. Work on the part of the viewer. I do not feel that there must be an objective reason behind the work, but it should inspire the viewer to think about it, mull it over, and try to grasp at the pieces we’re given to construct our own holistic perspective (which is why I love Lynch so much). I don’t like cubism in painting, but I don’t think that cubism is pretentious. I don’t like impressionism, but it does evoke feelings and thoughts in me as to what the painter was doing. I like surrealism, but not because it’s weird. ---
**Author:** ![Ass\_For\_A\_Hat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Ass\_For\_A\_Hat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ass_For_A_Hat)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/229 "2004-04-01T18:49:51Z")
_That quote of Ebert’s is a great example. When he cops to thinking to himself, “You are saying more about yourself than about the film,” he’s displaying (obliquely) that same intellectual arrogance that Dr. Millarrrrr displays. Snottiness of the first water._ I have to disagree. The notion that every opinion is valid just isn’t true. Sure, everyone is entitled to their opinion that a particular film “sucks”. Many of the opinions in this thread have been of this nature. But Ebert’s assertion that the typical moviegoer doesn’t have the experience to appreciate the film, I think is unquestionably true. To put this argument another way…Let’s say I enjoy Bordeaux wine. If I was discussing a particular wine that I really liked with another Bordeaux lover or general oenophile, I’d certainly be open to their criticisms of the wine. But if someone with little or no experience with wine told me that the wine “sucked”, I don’t think it’s elitist of me to dismiss their opinion without further consideration. For the most part, I feel the same way about films. If **Miller** wants to tell me that some independent art-house film I like is pretentious crap, I’ll listen to his argument. Maybe I’ll agree, maybe I won’t. I can tell from what he’s written, that he’s been around the block once or twice with films. But to ask me to assign any value to something as simple as the following, is absurd. \*The Matrix trilogy was shit. The English Patient was deadly, poisonous shit. The Last Supper I actually liked. Thought it was rather clever. I nominate, The Godfather (all of 'em). Remind me never to learn anything more about Italian gangsters. A complete waste of nine and a half hours of Francis Ford Coppola’s, "Don’t you wanna know more about this mystic horseshit? That’s right… pay me more money!!!\* Sorry to single out one person for derision. There were many similar posts in this thread & I just picked the closest one to quote. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/230 "2004-04-01T23:18:20Z")
> [@Tygr](#): > > I’d rather see them use their powers for good. If someone liked “The Magnificent Seven”, they should tell them about Kurasawa’s film and why they should watch it. It benefits no-one for them to dismiss it as Hollywood rip-off tripe. See, now **Ilsa** and **lissener** may rip out my innards for this one, but I thought the _Magnificent Seven_ was better than the _Seven Samurai_. _Seven Samurai_ meandered and plodded, whereas _Magnificent Seven_ was tighter, I felt. I like many of Kurosawa’s other films… _SS_ was just… slow. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/231 "2004-04-01T23:23:44Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > See, now **Ilsa** and **lissener** may rip out my innards for this one, but I thought the _Magnificent Seven_ was better than the _Seven Samurai_. > > _Seven Samurai_ meandered and plodded, whereas _Magnificent Seven_ was tighter, I felt. I like many of Kurosawa’s other films… _SS_ was just… slow. Mag7 was not as good as it could’ve been. Neither was 7Sam, but it was still a little better. I’m not a HUGE Kurosawa fan (give me Mizoguchi any day), but I’d have to pick his over the remake. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/232 "2004-04-02T04:27:53Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Mag7 was not as good as it could’ve been. Neither was 7Sam, but it was still a little better. I’m not a HUGE Kurosawa fan (give me Mizoguchi any day), but I’d have to pick his over the remake. Of course, my favorite interpretation of that basic tale would either be _Galaxy Quest_ or _Three Amigos_. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/233 "2004-04-02T20:35:20Z")
To drag this thread, kicking and screaming, back on topic I give you **Punch-Drunk Love** I actually like it a little, but I’m amazed at the sheer amount of critics that were whooshed into pissing themselves over what is essentially a remake of **Billy Madison**. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/234 "2004-04-02T21:43:41Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Of course, my favorite interpretation of that basic tale would either be _Galaxy Quest_ or _Three Amigos_. > 😃 Mine is [_Battle Beyond the Stars_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080421/). ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/235 "2004-04-02T21:59:25Z")
Mine would be **A Bug’s Life**. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/236 "2004-04-02T22:14:40Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Mine would be **A Bug’s Life**. Haw. Mine too. Kurasawa, yadda yadda yadda, but frankly, most days I’d rather rewatch \*A Bug’s Life \* than _Seven Samurai_. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/237 "2004-04-02T22:57:33Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > See, now **Ilsa** and **lissener** may rip out my innards for this one, but I thought the _Magnificent Seven_ was better than the _Seven Samurai_. > > _Seven Samurai_ meandered and plodded, whereas _Magnificent Seven_ was tighter, I felt. I like many of Kurosawa’s other films… _SS_ was just… slow. Personally, I wasn’t particularly fond of _The Seven Samurai_. Haven’t seen _The Magnificent Seven_. I much prefer _Throne Of Blood_. ---
**Author:** ![Suzene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7cd45c/32.png) [@Suzene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suzene)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/238 "2004-04-03T13:23:32Z")
“The Pillowbook”. Peter Greenaway strikes again. There were some fascinating images in that film, but I watched through the movie twice – the second time because I’m sure I missed something that would have made me enjoy it the first time – and still didn’t feel the slightest emotional connection to any of the characters and, in fact, would have liked several of them to die much earlier than they did. Character’s don’t have to be likable, but I don’t think asking for their actions to somehow make sense is an unreasonable thing. Additionally, I don’t care if real sex doesn’t actually look all that sexy! If you can get Vivian Wu and Ewan McGregor naked on the same screen and have the resulting scene not be in the least bit arousing, you have wasted my time and a lot of film. Suzene ---
**Author:** ![Leechboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9fc348/32.png) [@Leechboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leechboy)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/239 "2004-04-03T13:45:45Z")
Not sure if any one’s mentioned this one yet, I’d like to toss in Antonioni’s **Zabriski Point**. I saw this on the big screen with my wife and a friend who’s a major Antonioni fan (but had not seen this film). We all hated it. Tediously slow, laboooured to the nth degree, and completed with the kind of ham fisted symbolism usually foisted on us by student film makers. Briefly, I’d like to add - Soderberg’s Solaris. (I never fell asleep through Tarkovsky’s much slower/longer version, but have done so twice with Soderberg.) Johnny Depp’s The Brave ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2004, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171/240 "2004-04-03T14:34:31Z")
> [@Suzene](#): > > Additionally, I don’t care if real sex doesn’t actually look all that sexy! If you can get Vivian Wu and Ewan McGregor naked on the same screen and have the resulting scene not be in the least bit arousing, you have wasted my time and a lot of film. > > Suzene Maybe its just me, but I find prolonged sex scenes in movies incredibly embarrassing, and I just can’t watch 'em. I never could understand how an audience could get any pleasure from an explicit bedroom scene. Maybe it’s my presbyterian upbringing - I was always mortified in secondary school after games when we had to have group showers [ice-cold] and the prefects actually had to strip me off and throw me under the shower once when they caught me trying to avoid them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-unenjoyably-pretentious-movies/236171.md?page=13)