# Mother: Drunk. Children: Dead of starvation **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 17, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329 "2004-11-17T20:32:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/41 "2004-11-18T21:26:11Z")
I don’t see the point in mindlees retribution. The kids are dead and gleeful fantasies of making the drunken bitch suffer won’t breing them back. The woman needs treatment to get sober, and then the state needs to get a court order to have her sterilized so that she cannot have any more children. She has forfeited that right. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/42 "2004-11-18T21:49:12Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Unfortuantely, too many people use the “mentally ill” label to absolve themselves from responsibility for their actions. > > This woman starved her children to death, but we are supposed to pity her? > > Seriously? I dunno…do you think she was willful or do you think she’s out of her fucking mind and probably semi brain-dead? If it’s the latter, I think some form of compassion is in order. No one is asking anyone to absolve her of anything. That’s hardly the point. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/43 "2004-11-18T21:49:43Z")
Compassion for any living entity is an important thing. I respect those among you who in the face of a “lynch mob” (that part of me wants to be in) cry out for reason, understanding, and express a general sadness for a terrible situation. However, these emotional responses to this terrible tragedy cannot blur an obvious reality. This woman has done something terribly wrong and she must be held responsible. What if the story had changed and, while she was drunk, she beat the children. How much compassion would there be then. Abuse and neglect are in the same book in many circumstances. Neglect can lead to death, as we have seen here, which is why many experts stipulate that abuse and neglect are one in the same. I am not saying that other posters are doing this, but before you start mitigating her behavior by saying she was drunk or alcoholic, ask yourself, is the alcoholic who comes home and beats his wife, or the alcoholic who comes home and rapes her son, worthy of any mitigation because of the alcoholism. If you answer no to this, then you cannot give this woman any mitgation for neglect. Since this neglect led to the death of the children it is MORE serious than the man who beats his wife or the woman who rapes her son. In a court of law, being under the influence of drugs/alcohol is not a defense for a crime. Furthermore, being very sorry for the consequences of your bad decisions is not an excuse either. I only hope that we, as a society (in any country), can begin to develop programs that reach out into the community and seek to help these types of people in order to prevent these terrible tragedies. I do not know what programs would work, how it would be funded, or anything. But sterilizing her, imprisoning her or executing her will not repair the damage that was done. Nor will it care for the surviving children. Although I feel strongly some punishment must be enacted, it will take an average of 18k or more a year to keep her in prison and that money could have been better spent in preventing this tragedy. _sigh_ There is no easy answer and it just sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/44 "2004-11-18T21:53:20Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Because the first thing she did when she woke up from her stupor was head to the closet for another beer. > > Look, you can feel compassion for her if you want. I’m going to save mine for her poor babies who starved to death. They were helpless innocents. She had the choice whether or not to drink, whether or not to get help, whether or not to get pregnant in the first place. She’s an adult, and as such, repsonsible for her actions. It’s a shame you don’t have enough compassion within you to go around to everyone who could use a dose. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/45 "2004-11-18T21:56:25Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > As belladonna stated, those kids died hungry, scared, confused, and alone. They had no idea what was happening or why. > > It was her responsibility to use the money she had to buy food. She used it to buy booze. Cry “addiction” and “illness” all you want. This bitch can never suffer enough to make me feel that justice was done. As I said, I hope she cries every day and night for the rest of a very long life. > > Call it chest thumping. Call it feeling self righteous. Whatever makes you feel morally superior. :dubious: And a hearty kumba-fucking-ya to you, too. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/46 "2004-11-18T22:01:16Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Because the first thing she did when she woke up from her stupor was head to the closet for another beer. And this is what makes me come to the opposite conclusion from yours. A functional person wakes up and thinks of what they need to do for their kids; an addict thinks immediately of what they need to get their fix. No choice involved. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/47 "2004-11-18T22:25:03Z")
[Another update](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/200157_kent18.html). ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/48 "2004-11-18T22:31:52Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > And a hearty kumba-fucking-ya to you, too. I’m sorry, but when it comes to stuff like this I’m entirely biased. I have a daughter. When I read this, I imagine a child like mine going through what I can only imagine those kids going through while mommy dearest kicks back another bud light. It puts a sick feeling in my stomach. I’m not trying to accuse anyone here of not having any feelings for the kids by expressing a whit of sympathy for the mother. I just think the remarks made by metacom were highly and purposefully insulting. To imply that the people in this thread expressing disgust, anger, and outrage at this were just “chest thumping” is beyond the pale. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/49 "2004-11-18T22:50:17Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > It was her responsibility to use the money she had to buy food. She used it to buy booze. Cry “addiction” and “illness” all you want. This bitch can never suffer enough to make me feel that justice was done. As I said, I hope she cries every day and night for the rest of a very long life. Have you ever seen post partum depression(not that I’m sure this was in play here, but it seems likely with a seven week old) firsthand? I have and I don’t think your description would even remotely approach justice. Mainly because it was heading the wrong direction. I have three daughters and two sons, if that matters. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/50 "2004-11-18T23:04:50Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > To imply that the people in this thread expressing disgust, anger, and outrage at this were just “chest thumping” is beyond the pale. :mad: Being disgusted, angry, and outraged is fine. They’re reactions that normal people have when they hear of a tragedy. But they should be tempered with compassion and empathy, or you’ll be indulging in the same kind of disregard for life that you’re condemning this woman for. > [@Harborwolf](#): > > I hope she never stops crying. I wish there was a way to remind her of this for every day of the rest of her life. This woman needs to be put on permanent suicide watch. I want her to live a disgustingly long life with the knowledge that she let two children starve to death while she got drunk. I want it to haunt every waking moment and every dream for the next hundred years. > > And to me, even that won’t be enough. Do you truly believe this? If you were sitting in the same room as this woman five years from now, and you’d talked to her for an hour and learned that she’s a person like you in many respects, and she’d so deeply changed that her actions 5 years ago were as shocking to her then as they are to you now–only far more so because it was her that did it–and all she could do was sob, could you calmly look at her and wish her constant suffering for the rest of her life? If not, you were chest thumping. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/51 "2004-11-18T23:13:00Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > I’m just so sad. She’s so clearly sick in a way the rest of us can’t comprehend . . . That’s just it. It’s easier to be sympathetic (or judgmental) if we’re dealing with something in our own experience. This is totally outside our experience. I can’t sympathize but I can’t judge either. It’s just inconceivable, all of it. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/52 "2004-11-18T23:16:08Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > What if the story had changed and, while she was drunk, she beat the children. How much compassion would there be then. Abuse and neglect are in the same book in many circumstances. Neglect can lead to death, as we have seen here, which is why many experts stipulate that abuse and neglect are one in the same. IMO, that analogy doesn’t hold, because beating and rape can and do exist independant of alcohol. Being in a drunken stupor and all of the [mental incapacitation that goes along with it](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_283.html), cannot exist independently of alcohol. Hypothetically, a woman who neglects her kids knowingly and in cold blood, is IMO guilty of a different crime than a woman who goes on a bender, forgets what day it is, and wanders in a cloud of intoxication for so long that her children die of dehydration. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/53 "2004-11-18T23:22:26Z")
Anyone else notice the striking resemblence between Marie G. Robinson and Edgar G. Robinson? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/54 "2004-11-18T23:26:53Z")
I can’t believe I missed this post–it was very good… > [@Lissa](#): > > What if the story had changed and, while she was drunk, she beat the children. How much compassion would there be then. Abuse and neglect are in the same book in many circumstances. Neglect can lead to death, as we have seen here, which is why many experts stipulate that abuse and neglect are one in the same. For what it’s worth, I’d be arguing for compassion then too. I think neglect _is_ abuse–even if the physical consequences aren’t always this extreme, the emotional ones can still be devastating. I’d still argue that she should be treated with compassion, because I’d still believe she’s a human being with the capacity to change. And I’d have no problem keeping her away from kids until there was little doubt that she _had_ changed. > [@](#): > > Is the alcoholic who comes home and beats his wife, or the alcoholic who comes home and rapes her son, worthy of any mitigation because of the alcoholism. No. I don’t believe that anything (save some kind of organic brain injury) mitigates bad behaviour. I think people deserve compassion and empathy regardless of how the APA labels them. > [@](#): > > _sigh_ There is no easy answer and it just sucks. Amen. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/55 "2004-11-18T23:34:54Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Being disgusted, angry, and outraged is fine. They’re reactions that normal people have when they hear of a tragedy. But they should be tempered with compassion and empathy, or you’ll be indulging in the same kind of disregard for life that you’re condemning this woman for. > Do you truly believe this? > > If you were sitting in the same room as this woman five years from now, and you’d talked to her for an hour and learned that she’s a person like you in many respects, and she’d so deeply changed that her actions 5 years ago were as shocking to her then as they are to you now–only far more so because it was her that did it–and all she could do was sob, could you calmly look at her and wish her constant suffering for the rest of her life? > > If not, you were chest thumping. Her children are dead. Dead forever and ever and ever. No matter how sorry she is, it doesn’t change anything. You can look in every corner of the world, and you will never, ever find these children. They are gone. You are a kind person, **Metacom**. But kind is wrong. Wrong when the deed can never ever be mended. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/56 "2004-11-18T23:37:22Z")
Sorry for posting my sig in such an inappropriate thread. Clicking the little box is a habit. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/57 "2004-11-18T23:53:58Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Being disgusted, angry, and outraged is fine. They’re reactions that normal people have when they hear of a tragedy. But they should be tempered with compassion and empathy, or you’ll be indulging in the same kind of disregard for life that you’re condemning this woman for. > Do you truly believe this? > > If you were sitting in the same room as this woman five years from now, and you’d talked to her for an hour and learned that she’s a person like you in many respects, and she’d so deeply changed that her actions 5 years ago were as shocking to her then as they are to you now–only far more so because it was her that did it–and all she could do was sob, could you calmly look at her and wish her constant suffering for the rest of her life? > > If not, you were chest thumping. I do truly believe this. I can understand where people want compassion for her. Yeah, she has a problem. From what the articles say she has a big problem. To me, it doesn’t make a difference. I explained my reasoning in my last post. I’m sorry if I came insulted anyone who expressed sympathy for the mother. I didn’t mean to. However, I cannot find a way to feel sorry for this mother at all. I meant every single word I said in my first post and my opinion on this will _never_ change. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/58 "2004-11-18T23:55:24Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Because the first thing she did when she woke up from her stupor was head to the closet for another beer. I know you have a brain, **ivylass**. Being outraged and horrified does not give you a free pass to stop using it. Her kids died _while she was passed out drunk_. Unless the CPS guys told her immediately - which the news story implies was not the case - then when she got that beer she _didn’t know they were dead_. Was she neglectful? Obviously - but she’s just as obviously a hardcore alky. She probably got that beer on autopilot as part of her waking-up ritual. > [@JohnBeckWLD](#): > > With that double / (triple?) chin, I can only assume she was feeding herself just fine with the monies of other Washingtonians. Or getting a lot of calories from the dozens of cans of beer she drank. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/59 "2004-11-19T01:01:51Z")
I’ll feel sorry for her, sure enough. She’s certainly a sorry enough person, and deserves a moment’s consideration for a life wasted _getting_ wasted. That’s _always_ sad. But along with that sorrow comes anger and contempt. Anger, contempt, and sorrow are not mutually exclusive. No need to go to any effort explaining the “why” of my anger and contempt. Any human capable of empathy knows where that comes from. But pity? For _this_ woman?! Not a chance. My _pity_ is reserved for her victims. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329/60 "2004-11-19T02:20:57Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > If you were sitting in the same room as this woman five years from now, and you’d talked to her for an hour and learned that she’s a person like you in many respects, and she’d so deeply changed that her actions 5 years ago were as shocking to her then as they are to you now–only far more so because it was her that did it–and all she could do was sob, could you calmly look at her and wish her constant suffering for the rest of her life? > > If not, you were chest thumping. I’m so f’n glad you have this infinite ability for compassion and understanding. Please continue to thump your chest-thump about your moral superiority for possessing it. I don’t. I don’t pretend to. I don’t hide it. My compassion is limited, thus I only spend it on those who deserve it. If I’m sitting in a room with this woman 5 years from now, there better be prison guards nearby. Leg irons would be a nice touch. When she tells me how sorry she is and how she has changed, I’ll tell her to ask her dead babies how they feel about that. Then I would tell here that’s how she is supposed to feel. Read the last link. People tried to help her. But not only did she refuse help, she continued to be a baby factory. She walked a self-destructive path, and continued to add to those she dragged with her down the path. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-drunk-children-dead-of-starvation/275329.md?page=4)