# Mother seeks vegence for her son **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 28, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238 "2017-03-28T18:54:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/41 "2017-03-29T12:02:10Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Oddly though to American ears, I’m not sure that death is the wages of robbery with menaces. > In some softer, weaker countries one would give him the money, let him leave, then call the police. > > He would be caught, because they usually are — this chap doesn’t seem a genius — but even if he got away I’d prefer a successful theft to a body on the floor. Yeah, what Machine Elf said. If you shoot someone for robbing you who isn’t threatening you with a weapon, or other deadly force (like a 90lb woman shooting a 240lb man who just threatened to strangle her), you get charged with homicide in the US. The salient feature in the OP’s story is that the robber had a gun, and was threatening to use it. Now, you can point out all you want that in other countries, would-be robbers don’t have ready access to guns, but by then we’re arguing apples and oranges. America is a different place. We know it. You know it. Really no need to point it out yet again. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/42 "2017-03-29T12:29:48Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > SYG laws only allow deadly force in in situations where you are faced with an imminent threat to your own safety. I don’t agree. Florida Stat § 776.012(2): > [@](#): > > A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another **or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony**. (emphasis added) Both robbery and burglary are forcible felonies in Florida (see Florida Stat § 776.08). ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/43 "2017-03-29T12:32:44Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Americans are not obligated to shoot people. You can always choose not to use a weapon you have. Right. And the advice is still to first try to deescalate (and even more so if you are not in a position to flee safely or resist effectively, armed or not) BUT… > [@](#): > > The problem is that robbers brandishing guns sometimes leave their victims’ bodies on the floor. The concern is a successful theft with YOUR body on the floor rather than the perpetrator’s. Cornered and threatened with a loaded firearm, by itself crosses the threshold for a reasonable person to be in imminent fear for their life justifying use of force (which AFAIK applies in every state and territory, forget SYG). Sure, make the necessary investigation to determine the facts, that’s fair enough. But self defense exists. I’d say however no need shooting someone who’s _already out of the premises_ and fleeing, provided he \*keeps \*fleeing. If he stops to turn around, however, the confrontation is re-engaged. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/44 "2017-03-29T12:33:38Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Yeah, what Machine Elf said. If you shoot someone for robbing you who isn’t threatening you with a weapon, or other deadly force (like a 90lb woman shooting a 240lb man who just threatened to strangle her), you get charged with homicide in the US. The salient feature in the OP’s story is that the robber had a gun, and was threatening to use it. > > Now, you can point out all you want that in other countries, would-be robbers don’t have ready access to guns, but by then we’re arguing apples and oranges. America is a different place. We know it. You know it. Really no need to point it out yet again. No, I don’t agree that **Machine Elf** correctly stated the law, and obviously I don’t believe your summary is accurate either. In Florida, to take an example I’m very familiar with following the in-depth analysis the Zimmerman case occasioned, the SYG law includes responding to a “forcible felony” as a justification for the use of deadly force. And Florida law defines “forcible felony” to include robbery. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/45 "2017-03-29T12:40:22Z")
> [@Fleetwood](#): > > Judging by the reaction of his mother, we’re better off with him out out the gene pool. Too late - he had a four-year old, and his girlfriend was pregnant. Three generations of imbeciles is not enough. > [@drewder](#): > > Sad thing is his reward will likely be losing his job for violating Pizza Hut’s policies on employees being armed. So, if he follows precedent, he will then rob the same Pizza Hut and get shot. “The cirrrrr-cle of life…” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/46 "2017-03-29T12:49:03Z")
I noticed under that Florida law that “forcible felony” included “unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb” Would that include fireworks? ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/47 "2017-03-29T13:05:44Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I noticed under that Florida law that “forcible felony” included “unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb” > > Would that include fireworks? Well as long as you use the fireworks in compliance with the law you should be fine, if you light them and throw them into a flour factory you may have a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/48 "2017-03-29T13:17:34Z")
I think setting off fireworks is illegal in Florida. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/49 "2017-03-29T13:35:15Z")
I’d give you a pass, if you used 'em to stop an armed robber. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/50 "2017-03-29T13:39:12Z")
My point being, seems like you can shoot someone simply for throwing an M-80 or whatever on the 4th of July. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/51 "2017-03-29T14:30:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t agree. > > Florida Stat § 776.012(2): [Here’s 776.08:](http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/776.08) > [@Florida](#): > > “Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual. IOW, a forcible felony is a felony that involves a credible threat to your safety and/or public safety. That would include [robbery,](http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/robbery) which by definition involves the use or credible threat of physical violence against the victim in order to compel cooperation. Going back to my earlier post, a perp who runs into a restaurant and grabs cash without threatening anyone has committed a [theft,](http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/theft) but he hasn’t committed a robbery. Theft not being a _forcible_ felony, I don’t believe you’d be within your legal rights to shoot him under those circumstances. Along the same lines, SYG laws only allow use of force to prevent _imminent_ forcible felonies - which means a victim can’t shoot a perp who is fleeing the scene, unless (as **JRDelirious** suggests) he still appears to present a threat, e.g. by turning around to possibly re-engage against the victim. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/52 "2017-03-29T16:11:30Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Going back to my earlier post, a perp who runs into a restaurant and grabs cash without threatening anyone has committed a [theft,](http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/theft) but he hasn’t committed a robbery. Theft not being a _forcible_ felony, I don’t believe you’d be within your legal rights to shoot him under those circumstances. But has he committed a burglary? I haven’t researched the issue. At common law, this would not be burglary, because the elements of common law burglary include “a dwelling house;” in my state, that element is dispensed with and burglary includes the entry into other buildings with the intent to commit a larceny therein. Is that act statutory burglary in Florida? ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/53 "2017-03-29T16:29:52Z")
Any time I hear the words “He was such a good boy” my brain automatically translates it to “I knew absolutely nothing about my boy.” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/54 "2017-03-29T17:16:36Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > The mother seems to be one of those for whom her precious little baby can do no wrong. She is obviously wrong, but her child was killed, and that is not a time many people think rationally. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/55 "2017-03-29T17:42:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But has he committed a burglary? It appears not. > [@](#): > > (b) For offenses committed after July 1, 2001, “burglary” means: > 1. Entering a dwelling, a structure, or a conveyance with the intent to commit an offense therein, unless the premises are at the time open to the public or the defendant is licensed or invited to enter; or > 2. Notwithstanding a licensed or invited entry, remaining in a dwelling, structure, or conveyance: > a. Surreptitiously, with the intent to commit an offense therein; > b. After permission to remain therein has been withdrawn, with the intent to commit an offense therein; or > c. To commit or attempt to commit a forcible felony, as defined in s. 776.08. [http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App\_mode=Display\_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0810/Sections/0810.02.html](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0810/Sections/0810.02.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/56 "2017-03-29T18:41:06Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > It appears not. > [Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0810/Sections/0810.02.html) He did enter a structure with an intent to commit an offense therein, during a time when it was not open to the public. > [@OP's linked news](#): > > Police say he and two men waited until the business was closed, then burst into the restaurant. Even if someone bursts in unarmed, grabs cash and runs out, it’s burglary if the business is not open to the public at the time. What am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/57 "2017-03-29T18:57:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > He did enter a structure with an intent to commit an offense therein, during a time when it was not open to the public. We weren’t discussing the story in OP, we were discussing a post by Machine Elf that began: _“Going back to my earlier post, a perp who runs into a restaurant and grabs cash without threatening anyone”_ > [@](#): > > Even if someone bursts in unarmed, grabs cash and runs out, it’s burglary if the business is not open to the public at the time. > > What am I missing? I suppose it depends on how the state defines “open to the public.” Is it “open to the public” if the doors haven’t been locked yet? If I don’t read the store hours that may or may not be on the door and I enter after hours, have I entered a store not “open to the public”? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/58 "2017-03-29T19:10:20Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > We weren’t discussing the story in OP, we were discussing a post by Machine Elf that began: > > _“Going back to my earlier post, a perp who runs into a restaurant and grabs cash without threatening anyone”_ Sure, but that comment was in the general context of the story. So I read it as a change to the facts of the story in not threatening anyone, but otherwise retaining the elements of the story. Thus, my question. I still haven’t researched Florida caselaw on this point, but just from reading the statute it seems arguable that entering a restaurant during a time that is not open to the public, with the intent to commit an offense therein, is a burglary under Florida law. > [@](#): > > I suppose it depends on how the state defines “open to the public.” Is it “open to the public” if the doors haven’t been locked yet? If I don’t read the store hours that may or may not be on the door and I enter after hours, have I entered a store not “open to the public”? It’s an affirmative defense, most likely. The accused would have to demonstrate that the building was open to the public, under the ordinary meaning of the words. So yeah, if you don’t read the store hours you’ve entered a building not open to the public, although you lack any intent to commit an offense therein. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/59 "2017-03-29T19:14:47Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > SYG laws only allow deadly force in in situations where you are faced with an imminent threat to your own safety. > [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t agree. > > Florida Stat § 776.012(2): > > (emphasis added) > > Both robbery and burglary are forcible felonies in Florida (see Florida Stat § 776.08). 776.08 Forcible felony.—“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual. [http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App\_mode=Display\_Statute&Search\_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.08.html](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.08.html) It seems that that not all burglaries are forcible felonies, only those that involve that last part (the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual). ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238/60 "2017-03-29T19:17:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So yeah, if you don’t read the store hours you’ve entered a building not open to the public I’m not yet convinced of that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-seeks-vegence-for-her-son/783238.md?page=4)