# Mother sets fire to her daughter's gloating rapist **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 25, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363 "2009-02-25T14:27:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/201 "2009-02-26T18:32:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > 1. Four years ago? Any idea what happened to the mother? ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/202 "2009-02-26T19:42:09Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > If a man wants to throw hands and I cannot defuse the situation, I am justified at throwing hands in return, but assuming I manage to overcome him I am not justified in inflicting killing damage. > > If a man comes at me or an innocent with a weapon that can reasonably be thought lethal–a gun, a butcher knife, an axe–I am justified in killing him to defend myself, and it is not necessary to know whether he intended to kill me, cut of my arm, or just remove my pinkie finger. As it is also impossible for me to know that, the act of attacking with potentially lethal force means the person has sacrificed his right to life if I must kill him to protect myself. However, if I manage to subdue him, I may not arbitarily kill him under most circumstances. But I’m not going take any special risks to preserve his life until I know I and the innocent are safe. That all seems very fair and moral. We can only hope that all people who resort to lethal force have such standards. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/203 "2009-02-26T20:52:13Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > That all seems very fair and moral. We can only hope that all people who resort to lethal force have such standards. My standards for my behavior only apply to me. Plus I left myself an out, as I would, if possible, kill anyone who kills my wife, regardless of the verdict in a criminal case. But I wouldn’t do it in such a way that would put other persons in danger of physical harm. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/204 "2009-02-26T21:22:58Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > My standards for my behavior only apply to me. Well I’m afraid we need to have standards that apply to everyone. > [@](#): > > Plus I left myself an out, as I would, if possible, kill anyone who kills my wife, regardless of the verdict in a criminal case. I understand your emotion, but you’re just wrong to think this way. > [@](#): > > But I wouldn’t do it in such a way that would put other persons in danger of physical harm. Bully for you. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/205 "2009-02-26T21:30:28Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > What about in self defense? I don’t believe so, no. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/206 "2009-02-26T21:47:14Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > [QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] > > My standards for my behavior only apply to me. Well I’m afraid we need to have standards that apply to everyone. [/quote] [tonto] "What’s this “we” shit, white man? [/tonto] I was speaking of my personal ethical standards, not legal or moral standards. In many cases my standards for myself are different from that mandated by law. I am entirely responsible for my actions, and so long as I retain command of my faculties I cannot be relieved of that responsibility. But I am not comfortable with holding everyone else to that standard. There are things I will say are excusable in others which I do not hold excusable in myself. > [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > [QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] > > Plus I left myself an out, as I would, if possible, kill anyone who kills my wife, regardless of the verdict in a criminal case. I understand your emotion, but you’re just wrong to think this way. [/quote] I didn’t say that was the right course of action for me to take. I said that was the action I judge myself most likely to take. If someone murdered Mrs. Rhymer, I would no longer care about morality and would be likely to abandon my ethical strictures. That is an appraisal of my character, not an endorsement of the action or a recommendation for others. While I do not believe I would murder someone who had raped Kimmy, that would be my first inclination. Likewise my stepdaughters or nieces. But if she had been savaged but alive, I believe I would make the decision to stay my anger, because I want to be with her more than I want vengeance. If someone murdered her I wouldn’t care anymore. > [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > [QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] > > But I wouldn’t do it in such a way that would put other persons in danger of physical harm. Bully for you. [/QUOTE] I believe if you examine that statement closely --my statement, that is, not yours–you’ll see that it is, in at least one way, morally inferior to the choice to take revenge without regard to the safety of others. [QUOTE=MrDibble] > [@](#): > > Snarky\_Kong > What about in self defense? I don’t believe so, no. [/QUOTE] **Mr. Dibble** , do I correctly read this as you saying that killing is wrong evenin self-defense? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/207 "2009-02-26T21:52:35Z")
This mother should be commended before being sent to jail for a short period ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/208 "2009-02-26T21:59:35Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > FYI, this happened in 2005. > > I’m of two minds. I can understand and appreciate the mother’s actions, I’m not shedding a tear for a dead rapist. I also believe that in a “just” society, she would go to jail for killing another person. If you feel so strongly that this man must die for his crimes, then you should be willing to be jailed for killing him. AND… I also believe that in a “just” society, the S.O.B. would have stayed in jail, instead of getting out on a pass/vacation/whatever. I doubt the mother was thinking about, or even cared about her own jail time. Push the wrong button, and a person will go after you, no matter what the risk or penalty is. The stupid son of a bitch pushed THAT button. I would file this as just another form of Darwin Award. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/209 "2009-02-26T22:08:30Z")
Justice is a goal; not a given. Sometimes life sucks. If everyone felt that it was ok to take justice into their own hands, we’d never advance. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/210 "2009-02-26T22:31:20Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Justice is a goal; not a given. Sometimes life sucks. If everyone felt that it was ok to take justice into their own hands, we’d never advance. And yet, we all tend to get some idea that Justice is a given. It just isn’t so. OK, it’s a goal. It’s an excellent goal. But what happens when the law breaks down? What happens when people get the idea that there is no justice? You get vigilantes. You get vendettas and blood feuds. You get “frontier justice”. They make their own “justice” and it’s usually harsher than the Law would have done. It’s also a lot less picky about making sure "we got the right guy. It isn’t right, but desparate or frightened or angry people do nasty things. You don’t have a crime happen and then tell the victim or the victim’s family “hey sorry, shit happens”. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/211 "2009-02-26T22:37:01Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Was it the way he said it that made it a taunt? How do we know he wasn’t genuinely concerned? Do we accept the word of a woman who was described as mentally ill? I think it’s bloody unlikely that he was genuinely concerned. In any case, it would be entirely natural for the woman to take it as a threat against her daughter, or a taunt, even in the unlikely scenario that he was just asking out of concern. Others apparently heard him say that to the mother too, so it’s not just her word. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/212 "2009-02-26T22:42:10Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Being beaten is worse than being “just” raped. I think this is a load of complete bullshit, ignoring that being “just” raped goes far deeper into one’s psyche and personality than merely “just” being beaten. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > The chance of death or permanent physical harm is the difference. A beating can cause internal bleeding, brain damage, etc. Rape in and of itself is not going to kill the victim, in most cases. Bullshit here too. Rape can cause internal bleeding, and _very_ easily so in the case of a 13 year old. It also can result in a plethora of other severe injuries, plenty of which can be permament. I know someone that almost died from internal bleeding caused by “just being raped”, without being beaten up. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/213 "2009-02-26T23:04:27Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > And yet, we all tend to get some idea that Justice is a given. It just isn’t so. OK, it’s a goal. It’s an excellent goal. But what happens when the law breaks down? What happens when people get the idea that there is no justice? You get vigilantes. You get vendettas and blood feuds. You get “frontier justice”. They make their own “justice” and it’s usually harsher than the Law would have done. It’s also a lot less picky about making sure "we got the right guy. It isn’t right, but desparate or frightened or angry people do nasty things. > > You don’t have a crime happen and then tell the victim or the victim’s family “hey sorry, shit happens”. No, but most people would have called the police and told them that this guy was taunting them. Most people would see a gap in the system. That’s why this kind of story makes headlines…it doesn’t happen every day. It’s an abnormal response in a civilized society. Sure, we feel the hate and rage and anger, but most of us don’t act on it. No one told her “shit happens.” She didn’t give anyone a chance to say anything. I am cutting her some slack because she has mental problems that go beyond this incident. But the system falls apart somewhere every day, and not everyone reacts in violence. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/214 "2009-02-26T23:15:55Z")
> [@Monster104](#): > > I think this is a load of complete bullshit, ignoring that being “just” raped goes far deeper into one’s psyche and personality than merely “just” being beaten. Saying this doesn’t make it true. > [@](#): > > Bullshit here too. Rape can cause internal bleeding, and _very_ easily so in the case of a 13 year old. It also can result in a plethora of other severe injuries, plenty of which can be permament. I know someone that almost died from internal bleeding caused by “just being raped”, without being beaten up. Sorry, a beating is usually worse than a rape without a beating. Yes, there are rapes that cause internal injuries, but I’ll bet they come with beatings, too. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/215 "2009-02-26T23:18:32Z")
What the fuck do you think rape is? A disagreement on a point of consent? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/216 "2009-02-26T23:19:56Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > What the fuck do you think rape is? A disagreement on a point of consent? I’m pretty sure I know more than you do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/217 "2009-02-26T23:20:38Z")
How’s that? ---
**Author:** ![katannah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a5b964/32.png) [@katannah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/katannah)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/218 "2009-02-27T00:51:12Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Sorry, a beating is usually worse than a rape without a beating. Yes, there are rapes that cause internal injuries, but I’ll bet they come with beatings, too. Rape, is by its nature, a beating. It is a violent physical assault, and particularly if it is prolonged, will do pretty nasty damage to a woman’s vagina (let alone a child’s uterus). Not even gonna go into sodomy. The amount of tearing and pelvic fractures depend on many variables, such as the size/weight and/or level of enthusiasm of the attacker, disparity in size between the attacker and the survivor, environmental conditions, and self-defense of the survivor. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > I’m pretty sure I know more than you do about it. Would you please present your credentials? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/219 "2009-02-27T00:56:26Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Sorry, a beating is usually worse than a rape without a beating. Yes, there are rapes that cause internal injuries, but I’ll bet they come with beatings, too. Some beatings might be worse than some rapes, yes. Beatings are not _usually_ worse than rape, though. Actually, I don’t see any merit in putting the two crimes on some sort of scale. (BTW, you appear to have missed the part where his friend had internal bleeding without being beaten). ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/220 "2009-02-27T08:01:44Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > [tonto] > "What’s this “we” shit, white man? > [/tonto] Now you’re making assumptions! (entirely correct ones) > [@](#): > > I was speaking of my personal ethical standards, not legal or moral standards. In many cases my standards for myself are different from that mandated by law. I am entirely responsible for my actions, and so long as I retain command of my faculties I cannot be relieved of that responsibility. But I am not comfortable with holding everyone else to that standard. There are things I will say are excusable in others which I do not hold excusable in myself. > > I didn’t say that was the right course of action for me to take. I said that was the action I judge myself most likely to take. If someone murdered Mrs. Rhymer, I would no longer care about morality and would be likely to abandon my ethical strictures. That is an appraisal of my character, not an endorsement of the action or a recommendation for others. > > While I do not believe I would murder someone who had raped Kimmy, that would be my first inclination. Likewise my stepdaughters or nieces. But if she had been savaged but alive, I believe I would make the decision to stay my anger, because I want to be with her more than I want vengeance. > > If someone murdered her I wouldn’t care anymore. While your personal insights are certainly interesting and honest I’m not sure they add to the debate, which is about legal and moral standards. To engage with what you say, however, I would like to think that in the circumstances you describe I would not seek personal vengeance. I’ve read too much Shakespeare, and have also studied societies where this is the norm - you really don’t want to go there. > [@](#): > > I believe if you examine that statement closely --my statement, that is, not yours–you’ll see that it is, in at least one way, morally inferior to the choice to take revenge without regard to the safety of others. I don’t get what you mean. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363.md?page=12)