# Mother sets fire to her daughter's gloating rapist **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 25, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363 "2009-02-25T14:27:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/281 "2009-02-28T17:24:16Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I missed that the first time around, but I still see where a person could feel this way without any religious component. I admire his conviction. I don’t think “how” he arrived at his decision is important, other than just a curiosity thing. It really doesn’t matter. He is who he is and the logic makes sense. Depends on what you mean by “logic,” I suppose. In terms of pure deduction it is valid. But so what? Deductive logic manipulates false statements as easily as it does true ones; the validity of a syllogism has nothing to do with the truthfulness or usefulness of its conclusion. **Mr. Dibble** ’s arguments for utter pacifism make sense only if we predicate the existence of a non-physical element to the world: a spiritual plane, an afterlife, a divine judge, or some such. But there is no convincing evidence that such things exists. There is plenty of evidence that the physical world exists, that suffering is real, that some persons delight in causing harm to others. Equating the act of defending oneself or an innocent against such persons, as **Mr. Dibble** does, can only be accomplished by completely divorcing oneself from the only reality we have any evidence exists. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/282 "2009-02-28T17:49:09Z")
It was _symbolism!_ She was _mad!_ ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/283 "2009-02-28T17:50:33Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Depends on what you mean by “logic,” I suppose. In terms of pure deduction it is valid. But so what? Deductive logic manipulates false statements as easily as it does true ones; the validity of a syllogism has nothing to do with the truthfulness or usefulness of its conclusion. > > **Mr. Dibble** ’s arguments for utter pacifism make sense only if we predicate the existence of a non-physical element to the world: a spiritual plane, an afterlife, a divine judge, or some such. But there is no convincing evidence that such things exists. There is plenty of evidence that the physical world exists, that suffering is real, that some persons delight in causing harm to others. Equating the act of defending oneself or an innocent against such persons, as **Mr. Dibble** does, can only be accomplished by completely divorcing oneself from the only reality we have any evidence exists. Well I certainly don’t believe in an afterlife or spiritual plane, and I can see his dedication to non-violence within a strictly here-and-now-Earth-bound framework. It’s all too apparent that we live in a world that contains violence and Bad People. He can say “NO, I’m not going to murder, no matter what” within that framework, and for no other reason than not wanting to be part of what he considers to be “the worst thing a person can do.” Again, not to speak for him, but if it’s the worst thing, it’s the worst thing. Doing it, for whatever reason, is something he cannot live with. If this is criteria for being a good person, and he wants to be a good person _using his own criteria_, what choice does he have but to make a solid stand? If he murders, it perpetuates the problem of murder, regardless of the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/284 "2009-02-28T20:42:20Z")
> [@MissIntent](#): > > So what’s worse, dying by fire or freezing to death. Ooooh you can’t answer you haven’t experienced them both! Well, how is that wrong? Asking people wether they rather be beaten or raped only tells what they THINK is worse, if you want to know what is actually worse how can you ask anyone but someone whos been through both things? seems pretty obvious to me. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/285 "2009-02-28T22:25:49Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > I hope she gets off by pleading temporary incinerator. Okay, I AM going to hell now. That was funny. Regarding the topic. I’m really torn, part of me is all about the legality, but more of me is saying “karma”. It may not have been legally right, according to the laws of our modern society that is, for her to have done that… But I can’t agree that it wasn’t “Justice”. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/286 "2009-02-28T22:31:24Z")
> [@kenner116](#): > > I wouldn’t want to live in a society that was weak on child rapists, but I wouldn’t want to live in a society that condoned revenge killings, either. Too late. We do live in a society that is weak on child rapists. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/287 "2009-02-28T23:11:01Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > And you seem to have missed the part where I said “usually.” Sorry **Kalhoun** , I frequently agree with your posts in many threads, but in this case, having read your “beatings are usually worse than rape posts”, I have to disagree vehemently! “Some X are worse than some Y” is NOT equal at all to “X are usually worse than Y”. My question to you is “to whom are beatings USUALLY worse than rapes”? Physically, as long as the rape doesn’t have a strong physical violence component, then yes, I’d agree that, physically speaking ONLY, a beating can be said to be worse than a rape. But it certainly is not a given that beatings are “usually” worse than rapes, even if a rape involves no physical damage. The emotional/mental aspect of a rape can and often does more than make up for any lacking physical damage. And just because a person manages to outwardly lead a productive life does not mean that they’re not suffering from their ordeal, or that it doesn’t have lasting negative effect on their lives. Rape, (and its related but so-called lesser crimes of child molestation and sexual abuse), takes away an irreplaceable part of a person’s psyche and life, figuratively speaking, “killing” a part of them. A part of them that is then lost forever. Oh sure, they “survive” and can live a “normal” life, but that knowledge is with them forever and can adversely affect every aspect. (yes, they can turn it around and do some good by doing victim advocate work and such, but they have still had that big piece of who they were stolen from them). I know you don’t mean to sound this way, but your posts have a tone of flippancy and dismissal of “mere” rape as compared to the “real” damage of a beating. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/288 "2009-03-01T01:26:39Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Rape, (and its related but so-called lesser crimes of child molestation and sexual abuse), takes away an irreplaceable part of a person’s psyche and life, figuratively speaking, “killing” a part of them. A part of them that is then lost forever. Oh sure, they “survive” and can live a “normal” life, but that knowledge is with them forever and can adversely affect every aspect. (yes, they can turn it around and do some good by doing victim advocate work and such, but they have still had that big piece of who they were stolen from them). **Kalhoun** did retract her blanket generalization. I do agree with everything you said except what I quoted above. I once bought into this notion that rape and/or sexual abuse steals a part of you away forever, until I found [a really phenomenal feminist article](http://bitchmagazine.org/article/the-collapsible-woman) in Bitch magazine that put the lie to this little piece of mythology. I can’t say it nearly as eloquently as she can, so let her speak: [QUOTE=Vanessa Veselka] If you have been raped or abused, you’re scarred for life. You will never be as you were before the experience. This is also true for falling in love, getting your heart broken, going to war, having a child, or reading a great book. Everything that cuts deeply marks us. Being “scarred for life” isn’t the defining characteristic of a person who’s been raped; we’re all scarred for life the second that we intimately relate to the outside world. The difference is in the nature of the wound. \ Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary defines rape as forced sex and also plunder—“robbing or despoiling,” to be exact. Therefore, a raped woman is the victim of theft. You weren’t just violated, we tell her. You were pillaged. Something of intrinsic value was stolen from you. The fervent belief that this is true is evident on all sides of the issue. From traditional cultures that treat a raped woman as bankrupt to progressive movements that speak in terms of “reclaiming” oneself and “owning” the experience, we consistently use the language of theft. We tell a woman loudly and clearly that if she was sexually violated she has been robbed, and that the objects stolen were purity and innocence. With the best of motives, we still say to her, “I’m sorry for your loss.” We will ask her to “reclaim” her experience, rather than realize its effects. The truth is, if you were raped or abused, nothing was stolen from you. The low-life who did it threw his soul in the trash, but yours is intact. As long as we cling to the concept of rape or abuse as theft, we are ultimately led back to the belief that a woman’s worth and sense of self lie in her sexual purity. As long as the artifacts “stolen” are her defining virtues, we can speak of her condition only in terms of ownership and loss. To imply that deep within every woman is something essential that can be seen or touched, a vessel containing the real her that can be stolen by someone else, is an absolute objectification of women. [/QUOTE] I’m also completely stymied that child abuse would be considered a ‘‘lesser crime’’ than rape by anyone, and have never heard that position posited by a single person, ever. I understand you don’t agree that it is a lesser crime, but I just don’t understand where that idea even came from. Experience of trauma, and whether we perceive it as a trauma, and whether we do or do not develop PTSD, and how we do or do not cope, is an entirely subjective and contextual thing. While it is strongly influenced by the age of the victim, the duration and repetition of the abuse, the identity of the perpetrator and whether or not the victim had been previously traumatized, it’s really all a subjective crapshoot. People take a great deal of care to rank specific horrible experiences–I’m pretty sure, for example, that most of us regard being a POW as more psychologically damaging than being abused as a child – but the truth is the evidence doesn’t bear it out. Captivity is captivity, and it doesn’t matter if your tormentor is The Viet Cong or Daddy–either way you’re in for one hell of a head trip. Rape and political terror and domestic violence and child abuse and being beaten and being a POW all have a lot more in common than most people think. [Cite.](http://www.jimhopper.com/trauma_and_recovery/) ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/289 "2009-03-01T02:46:52Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > Oh, for pity’s sake. :rolleyes: > > Just how often do you really think that anyone will be in the situation where the only way to prevent harm to their loved ones is to kill their assailant? Probably not likely. It was a _hypthetical_. I’ve never been through it, but if I had to kill to defend and was capable with certainty that I could acheive it, I would not hesitate. I cannot understand why someone wouldn’t, the idea is completely foreign to me. ---
**Author:** ![RedWood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f08c70/32.png) [@RedWood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedWood)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/290 "2009-03-01T04:31:33Z")
GRRRRH My sister was raped at knifepoint at the same age. If the asshat had turned right instead of left, he’d have found me. I wish he had. I at least knew what sex was. Given a gas can, a torch, and her rapist in front of me? Yeah, I’d set him on fire. Gladly. Without a qualm. Police come after and arrest me? Fine. Bring your jailtime. I’ll do it. I won’t resist you. I’ll likely be a model prisoner. Oh, you believe in Hell and think I should go there? _Bring your Hellfire._ I will gladly endure it too. Hopefully asshat will roast right beside me. You did not have your sister crying in your arms. That act changed her forever. (more calmly) Mom’s action was extreme, but I can see why she would do such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/291 "2009-03-01T10:00:32Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That is idiotic. It is a moral system that bears no relation to anything in the real world. It is an entirely useless system, because it has no potential to do anything that makes the world better or its adherents better people. No, it’s WORSE than useless, because it actively makes things better for the evil. It’s exactly the sort of system that evil people would like good people to all adopt. Tell the people of India how useless a system it is, and how it doesn’t relate to the real world in any way. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The problem with your argument, **Mr. Dibble** , is one that many religious arguments share. You are asserting, without a scintilla of evidence, that there is some intangible “spiritual” element to existence, and that this spiritual element for whatever reason is more important, more valid, more essential, more valuable than the real, physical world in which we live in. I’ve done **no** such thing. I’ve only invoked my own _feelings_, which, I assure you, are completely real, without a spiritual element. > [@](#): > > This is the same sort of complacent idiocy that leads to Antonin Scalia, for instance, saying that, since Christ averred that there will be poor always, it is not necessary or even right for the wealthy to take compassion on the ones in the real world. You are making the mistake of equating pacifism with passivity. Just because I will not take deadly action doesn’t mean I will take no action. > [@](#): > > Maybe there’s such a thing as the soul. Maybe there’s such a thing as the afterlife. I don’t know for certain, but I strongly doubt it in either case. But even if I stipulate that either one exists, I see no reason why either should be granted priority over the physical world. Can you give me one? I can’t, since I don’t believe in either. Clearly, you’ve never read anything I’ve ever written in GD about religion or morality, which is cool. But you’re making sweeping assumptions about my motives for pacifism without any information to go on. My religion is atheist humanism, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/292 "2009-03-01T10:04:32Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Are you aware of how blisteringly stupid, how incredibly stupid the bolded section is? You are, by those words, equating the actions of soldiders who foguht and died to save Jews & others from concentration camps. Equating them to what? > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > How in the name of anything reasonable do you do that? It fits my moral framework. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Just out of idle curiosity, what is your religious background? Atheist humanist with some Buddhist influence. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/293 "2009-03-01T10:08:05Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Well I certainly don’t believe in an afterlife or spiritual plane, and I can see his dedication to non-violence within a strictly here-and-now-Earth-bound framework. It’s all too apparent that we live in a world that contains violence and Bad People. He can say “NO, I’m not going to murder, no matter what” within that framework, and for no other reason than not wanting to be part of what he considers to be “the worst thing a person can do.” > > Again, not to speak for him, but if it’s the worst thing, it’s the worst thing. Doing it, for whatever reason, is something he cannot live with. If this is criteria for being a good person, and he wants to be a good person _using his own criteria_, what choice does he have but to make a solid stand? If he murders, it perpetuates the problem of murder, regardless of the circumstances. This very much sums up why I feel the way I do. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/294 "2009-03-01T10:13:07Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > And I thought I was a doormat. I don’t see a refusal to be a killer as being a doormat. Like I said - fallacy of false dichotomy. Or excluded middle, whichever. > [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > Holy shit. Thanks for answering honestly, but I cannot fathom knowing I can kill my potential killer, and not doing so because I think it’s _wrong_. That may be, but he’s doubly wrong for killing you. TWo wrongs don’t make a right. > [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > I hope you conveyed this to your SO or kids if you have them. Yes > [@](#): > > They should know you won’t be helping them should their lives be at certain risk, with your certain capability to kill a person to prevent yours, or their deaths. But I _would_ be helping them any other way I can. I’m just not a killer, nor do I want to be. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/295 "2009-03-01T10:46:14Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > **Kalhoun** did retract her blanket generalization. I do agree with everything you said except what I quoted above. I once bought into this notion that rape and/or sexual abuse steals a part of you away forever, until I found [a really phenomenal feminist article](http://bitchmagazine.org/article/the-collapsible-woman) in Bitch magazine that put the lie to this little piece of mythology. > > I can’t say it nearly as eloquently as she can, so let her speak:f you have been raped or abused, you’re scarred for life. You will never be as you were before the experience. This is also true for falling in love, getting your heart broken, going to war, having a child, or reading a great book. Everything that cuts deeply marks us. Being “scarred for life” isn’t the defining characteristic of a person who’s been raped; we’re all scarred for life the second that we intimately relate to the outside world. The difference is in the nature of the wound. > > \ > > Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary defines rape as forced sex and also plunder—“robbing or despoiling,” to be exact. Therefore, a raped woman is the victim of theft. You weren’t just violated, we tell her. You were pillaged. Something of intrinsic value was stolen from you. The fervent belief that this is true is evident on all sides of the issue. First off, please re-read my post. I state “can and often does…”. Which is not the same thing as stating or believing the intense and total devastation that the feminist article decries above. Secondly, I don’t believe that a woman has to be “told” this in order to feel it. After all, rape victims go back much further than modern psycho-babble. If the author of the feminist article (sorry I can’t see her name in the quote I snipped) is meaning to say that no woman “should” ever feel that way, she’s wrong. And while I understand and agree with some of her assessment of (to paraphrase) “rape doesn’t equal stolen purity”. I don’t agree that it doesn’t equal stolen innocence. A person who is molested as a child never gets to have her first sexual experience (unless she is one of the ones who has somehow blocked it out) be completely firsthand and her actual FIRST experience. She’s already had sexual experiences with her molester, so her first lover’s penis is NOT the first she will see, his touch is not the first she will know and so on. She does not get to have the experience that should be hers, that of it being hers and her lover’s alone. That has been taken from her (unless she can be hypnotized and made to forget or something), that is a fact. Now, if the author is arguing how that necessarily effects one victim or another, then I agree it doesn’t have to be a lifelong total devastation, but to act as if it’s never going to negatively color the sexual part of a woman’s life and her romantic relationships is only one person’s opinion and not a correct one imho (eloquent yes but just an opinion). > [@](#): > > I’m also completely stymied that child abuse would be considered a ‘‘lesser crime’’ than rape by anyone, and have never heard that position posited by a single person, ever. I understand you don’t agree that it is a lesser crime, but I just don’t understand where that idea even came from. Sorry to give the impression that it’s something I came up with. I’ve seen and heard that type of mentality in casual conversation as well as in various things I’ve read (even on websites such as this one), and in the media. Though **of course** no one ever says the word “lesser”, by the subtext and the way they compare it to rape, it is clear that that’s what they mean. _Merely_ being molested, if a person is not penetrated, does not always carry the same weight with some in so-called polite society. I’m glad you’ve not experienced this sort of attitude, but it’s out there. > [@](#): > > Experience of trauma, and whether we perceive it as a trauma, and whether we do or do not develop PTSD, and how we do or do not cope, is an entirely subjective and contextual thing. Again, which I why I posted to **Kalhoun** that a person can’t just arbitrarily announce “X is usually worse than Y”. > [@](#): > > While it is strongly influenced by the age of the victim, the duration and repetition of the abuse, the identity of the perpetrator and whether or not the victim had been previously traumatized, it’s really all a subjective crapshoot. People take a great deal of care to rank specific horrible experiences–I’m pretty sure, for example, that most of us regard being a POW as more psychologically damaging than being abused as a child – but the truth is the evidence doesn’t bear it out. Captivity is captivity, and it doesn’t matter if your tormentor is The Viet Cong or Daddy–either way you’re in for one hell of a head trip. Rape and political terror and domestic violence and child abuse and being beaten and being a POW all have a lot more in common than most people think. > [Cite.](http://www.jimhopper.com/trauma_and_recovery/) “Rape and political terror and domestic violence and child abuse and being beaten and being a POW all have a lot more in common than most people think.” This I agree with, but what **Kalhoun** is/was saying, that is but “beating is **usually** worse than rape” is very black and white, and sorry **Kalhoun** , I missed where you retracted this, does not jive with the sentiment in this quote. The word “usually” implies a greater percentage of one thing over the other. That’s not true in this case, and that was my point. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/296 "2009-03-01T11:17:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t see a refusal to be a killer as being a doormat. Like I said - fallacy of false dichotomy. Or excluded middle, whichever. Earlier you’d stated (paraphrased) that incidents in which a person has no other option but to kill or be killed are essentially non-existent. Not so, lately they’re actually pretty common. Haven’t you seen any of the news reports on school killings or other major shooting sprees, such as the YWAM Colorado Christian Center, the Chicago Mercantile, or University of Texas (1966) massacres? It seems as if there is one of these horrible things every year. A lot of the time the perp shoots himself in the end, but… In many of those cases had law enforcement or other citizens not shot the perp, he would have gone on killing. To not kill, in many, not just a few, of these cases, would be to condemn to death many other people. In the UT massacre, the fact that several ordinary citizens had guns, and kept firing at the nut in the clock tower, kept him from killing a lot more people than he did. Shooting him was the only way the officers were able to stop him from killing. So, your statement of: > [@](#): > > TWo wrongs don’t make a right. Is true, in sort of a twisted way that you didn’t intend. To not kill, in a case like this, would be in essence, to kill many more and that would certainly be more than two wrongs. I’m just mind-boggled here, are you truly trying to say, that cornered, and with no other option with which to save yourself and others **(and yes, I know you don’t want to think it’s true, but those situations do exist, more often that you’d like to think!)**, that you’d merely stand there and be gunned down, and allow others to succumb to the same fate by your inaction? And you don’t consider condemning others to die in this fashion to be morally wrong? If that is in fact the way it would actually go down then you really are a doormat. Though I truly believe that if that moment came, old man survival instinct would kick in with a vengeance and that you’d do what it took to live, no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/297 "2009-03-01T11:40:16Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Though I truly believe that if that moment came, old man survival instinct would kick in with a vengeance and that you’d do what it took to live, no matter what. And I truly believe you’d be hiding in the corner in a puddle of your own piss. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/298 "2009-03-01T12:41:33Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > And I truly believe you’d be hiding in the corner in a puddle of your own piss. Goodness, we’ve touched a bit of a nerve haven’t we? Just out of curiosity, why on earth would a reply to \*\*Mr.Dribble’s \*\* post set you off so? Or was it just a poor attempt to be funny? As to whether I’d end up in a puddle of my own pee? Possibly, possibly not, it wouldn’t bother me if I did, what else would anyone expect of a little old granny? The point is, no one really knows how instinct will takeover in a situation as dire as that. I suspect, based upon my encounters with bears, that I’d stand there nice and still and sing, like an idiot (good idea with bears, probably not so good with a psychotic human killer :D). ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/299 "2009-03-01T12:49:03Z")
I, for one, don’t have a problem with MrDibble’s stance. He has not said he would do \*nothing \* if faced with the need to stop a violent serial killer or whatever. The chances of him being in a situation where he is faced with the choice of Kill This Psycho or 1, 000 People Die are miniscule to none. He has posted here about the violence he himself has suffered. So, outside of hypotheticals involving school massacres or timetravelling back to when Hitler was a 10 year boy, I don’t see a problem with him adopting this as his individual stance. I don’t agree with it, but paradoxically I know that if more people took on this philosophy of absolute non-violence the world would be a better place. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/300 "2009-03-01T12:53:51Z")
[QUOTE=CanvasShoes] Goodness, we’ve touched a bit of a nerve haven’t we? Just out of curiosity, why on earth would a reply to Mr.Dribble’s post set you off so? Or was it just a poor attempt to be funny? [/QUOTE] You’re a little old granny? Oh lord, I feel terrible now . . . But you did touch a nerve and I thought you were rude to presume the reactions of a stranger. **MrDibble** has explained himself quite clearly and patiently several times and in return has had his courage and his morals put to question. After each of his answers someone new pops up and basically just says “I don’t believe you”. It’s taking a philosophical debate and turning it into a character debate, which is just stupid. And, yes, I know it’s the pit. And by the way if the extra “r” that you added to his username wasn’t a typo then you’re a little old granny with no class. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363.md?page=16)