# Mother sets fire to her daughter's gloating rapist **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 25, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363 "2009-02-25T14:27:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/361 "2009-03-04T14:10:51Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > That his animal reaction could lead to death if it was totally a reaction without any chance of thought is implied? If that is incorrect **MrDibble** please explain how you have overcome your instinctive reactions? By not being a 733t martial artist or habitually armed to the teeth. There’s no easy way I can kill someone by instinct without first letting Reason get a look in. > [@](#): > > You’re a clueless fool if you think nothing happens to parents/family of murder victims, especially children, and most especially when the legal system doesn’t result in justice. It’s\* not the same thing\* that happens to them, as happened to us. But you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/362 "2009-03-04T15:22:05Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s not the same thing that happens to them, as happened to us. But you knew that. No, it’s not the same thing, but that’s not what you said. You said **nothing** happened to him. I’ll argue any day that what happened to GusNSpot and his family (and other comparable situations for thousands of of other people) can be just as psychologically traumatic, in some cases maybe even more so, as being “just” raped or beat up. Note that I’m not trying to downplay how traumatic those events can be to the victims of them, just emphasizing that you simply _cannot_ dismiss the trauma that can very easily, and often does, occur with close family members. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/363 "2009-03-04T15:43:01Z")
> [@Monster104](#): > > No, it’s not the same thing, but that’s not what you said. You said **nothing** happened to him. In reply to him attempting to browbeat **Kalhoun** (and me) (rape survivors) with his tales of _second-hand_ trauma. It’s contextual - nothing _violent_ happened\* to him\*, is that better? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/364 "2009-03-04T15:48:24Z")
> [@Monster104](#): > > I’ll argue any day that what happened to GusNSpot and his family (and other comparable situations for thousands of of other people) can be just as psychologically traumatic, in some cases maybe even more so, as being “just” raped or beat up. Then you would argue like an idiot. Youre saying being trelated to someone who has something traumatic happen to them is worse than the trauma itself? That’s moronic. > [@Monster104](#): > > Note that I’m not trying to downplay how traumatic those events can be to the victims of them, just emphasizing that you simply _cannot_ dismiss the trauma that can very easily, and often does, occur with close family members. Yes, I can dismiss it - usually, it’s self-serving self-pity, and doesn’t help the actual victim at all. I don’t need to know that my family is distraught over my trauma, I need them to take away the pain. How does them wallowing in their own so-called loss do that? ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/365 "2009-03-04T16:03:17Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > In reply to him attempting to browbeat **Kalhoun** (and me) (rape survivors) with his tales of _second-hand_ trauma. It’s contextual - nothing _violent_ happened\* to him\*, is that better? Yes, it’s better. Do understand that because this is a message board that I’m kinda forced to interpret what you write by how you wrote it, and that’s why I wrote what I wrote. > [@](#): > > Then you would argue like an idiot. Youre saying being trelated to someone who has something traumatic happen to them is worse than the trauma itself? That’s moronic. No, that’s not what I’m saying. I quite clearly said that, for example, a parent who’s child was murdered, and then no justice was ever done to the killer, can very much so be a situation just as traumatizing for the parent, as it can be traumatizing for someone to become the victim of rape or beating. Different kinds of trauma, yes, but comparable outcomes are absolutely possible. You yourself, as well as Kalhoun, have both basically stated that rape is not as traumatizing as the social stigma surrounding it makes it out to be. So, do tell me how I am arguing like an idiot, because I think arguing against my position here is arguing like an idiot. > [@](#): > > Yes, I can dismiss it - usually, it’s self-serving self-pity, and doesn’t help the actual victim at all. It’s usually “self-serving self-pity” for a parent or other close family member to be traumatized by the murder of their offspring/sibling, especially when the situation is exacerbated by the murderer escaping any sort of justice? You seem to be seriously deficient in the area of trauma psychology if that’s what you believe. > [@](#): > > I don’t need to know that my family is distraught over my trauma, I need them to take away the pain. How does them wallowing in their own so-called loss do that? Evidently you don’t seem to be capable of making the distinction between being “distraught” or “wallowing in the own so-called loss”, and genuine psychological trauma and what can cause it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/366 "2009-03-04T16:42:00Z")
I was referring to the situation with the raped sister, but I see what you mean, and I think I do come across as a bit of an ass there, so I’m just going to apologise to both you and **Gus** , and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/367 "2009-03-04T19:21:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Then you would argue like an idiot. Youre saying being trelated to someone who has something traumatic happen to them is worse than the trauma itself? That’s moronic. It’s not worse. However, I can fully understand that seeing that happen to someone you care about, could fill a person with hate for the perpetrator. Nothing like that ever happened to my sister, but I can easily imagine that I would have nothing but hate for the person who did it. Whether I acted on it or not, who knows. I won’t know, ever (I hope). ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/368 "2009-03-04T20:59:30Z")
> [@](#): > > I was referring to the situation with the raped sister, but I see what you mean, and I think I do come across as a bit of an ass there, so I’m just going to apologise to both you and Gus, and leave it at that. Ditto, I’m sorry for being so unnecessarily crass and confrontational. I dunno why I got so irritated…I think I may be more stressed out from school stuff than I thought. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/369 "2009-03-05T00:02:33Z")
What was it Freddy N said? “Battle not with monsters, lest ye become monsters also.” I too expect I would be filled with murderous rage if someone killed one of my loved ones, but the example I’d hope to follow would be that of the father forgiving a sons murderer, rather than the one who shot him in the witness box. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/370 "2009-03-05T08:23:16Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > It’s not worse. However, I can fully understand that seeing that happen to someone you care about, could fill a person with hate for the perpetrator. Nothing like that ever happened to my sister, but I can easily imagine that I would have nothing but hate for the person who did it. My mileage varies. I am not filled with hate for either of the people who raped me, for instance. I wouldn’t give either that much power over me. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/371 "2009-03-05T18:21:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > My mileage varies. I am not filled with hate for either of the people who raped me, for instance. I wouldn’t give either that much power over me. All I can ask is, understand that some of us just don’t know. I might let the law handle it. I might do nothing. I might kill him myself. I just don’t know. But I can guarantee, the hate would be there. It’s instinct. Sometimes it’s good to go with instinct, sometimes it isn’t. But either way, it’s a powerful thing. I consider myself fairly civilized, but I also recognize that each of us does have “that other self” under the surface. On the other hand, if it ever happened, and that same person came back and was stalking my sister/mother/child again, and the law didn’t do anything, all bets are off. Then it becomes a matter of protecting. It becomes simpler and “more pure”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/372 "2009-03-06T06:22:06Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > All I can ask is, understand that some of us just don’t know. I _do_ understand. I’m really not judging other people for reacting as they do, believe me. All I’ve been stating is how _I’d_ react, why _I_ think it’s a better way for me, and why I’m so all-fired certain about my reactions. I totally get that other people don’t subscribe to my moral system. That’s OK. It’s not (my idea of) a perfect world, but it’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/373 "2009-03-06T14:00:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > By not being a 733t martial artist or habitually armed to the teeth. There’s no easy way I can kill someone by instinct without first letting Reason get a look in. Yup, people who CAN easily ‘solve a problem’ with their fists or by other violent means, tend not to consider this. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/374 "2009-03-07T10:41:31Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > I think this might be the crux of the bafflement. I’m pretty sure **MrDibble** has not advocated non-violence - just the utter wrongness of killing someone, in whatever circumstances. > > Speaking for myself I probably wouldn’t go as far as him. I acknowledge that if someone was holding a gun to my daughters head and I had a clear shot blah de blah, then I’d probably go for it. But for the vast majority, if not all of us, these situations are completely hypothetical. I also think that the taking of a life, even the life of a scumbag psycho, is regrettable in the extreme, and should be avoided if at all possible. I think you’re right. I think that anyone, if that extreme moment arrived, would behave differently than they might imagine they would. > [@](#): > > I think far too many people think about when killing is justifiable - from the hypothetical black and white scenarios, through “just war”, to the idea that “he’s on my property so he’s lost the right to live” - and not enough time thinking about alternative ways to deal with the world’s problems. Well, I think that’s what had me so mindboggled and wildly curious. **MrDibble’s** IS very black and white, very absolute. It wasn’t that I disagreed with his stance so much that I was just so surprised that it seemed to be “NO! No matter what, NO killing! Even if it means that not killing would cause others to die”. But in the long run, you’re right, the likelihood of any of those extreme circumstances happening are so small, that really, it doesn’t matter either way. > [@](#): > > PS I’m sorry if I’ve offended you at all, you’re clearly not the person I thought you were. You haven’t offended me at all, I thought, given that I’m not a man, as you seemed to have thought I was, the “pee yourself into a puddle” remark was funny. Which poster did you think I was? Or did you mean you thought I was a worse SORT of poster? If so, I can have my “pet subjects” and my bad moments like anyone else :D. Some subjects just bring out the passionate GRRRRRR in some of us! ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363/375 "2009-03-07T11:05:00Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I’m going to go ahead and assume based on your interpretation of the article that you didn’t read the article. The author makes it explicit that in some cases these feelings are natural and common, but by bracing the victim for them before she has even experienced them we are setting up a self-fulfilling prophecy. There is absolutely no need to be defensive, as I pretty explicitly disagreed with **Kalhoun** further up in the thread, and then made it clear in my response to you that I agreed with everything you’d said except the part I quoted. You’re defending parts of your post that I already agree with. Nope, I read the whole thing. I just disagree with some of it as you reiterated in your post. > [@](#): > > You neither have to convince me of the real loss that being abused or raped can entail, and further you don’t have to convince me that child molestation isn’t as bad as rape. One of my earliest memories is testifying in court against the man I enthusiastically called Dad. As unfortunate a situation that was, it wasn’t nearly as traumatic as being later molested by my Mom’s 4th husband (who I also enthusiastically called Dad) for years, from the age of 10 to 17. I lost both fathers as a result of their actions, and in the second case my mother blamed me, accused me of lying about it, and admitted she knew about it all in a single breath. She spent the next several years still married to my abuser, trying to convince my doctors I was schizophrenic, and to this day is uncomfortable to bring up the subject because she’s ‘‘not ready’’ to talk about it. That at no point in my life was I forcibly penetrated really doesn’t enter into the utter grief and trauma I had to endure as a result of that situation and absolutely no one on this planet will ever convince me that what I went through isn’t ‘‘as bad’’ as rape. I understand and agree, my comments were not to you, nor in disagreement but to state that there are those who do make comments that suggest that one (rape etc) is worse than “mere” molestation. Not everyone of course, but it does happen, that’s the only thing I was trying to bring up regarding that point. You seemed to think, based upon your post, that it had never ever been even mentioned by anyone ever. It has, even by the media (though subtle), and I’ve heard it. That’s the ONLY point I was trying to make, not whatever it is you seem to think I’m saying, or disagree with here. > [@](#): > > I read that article at a time when my life was pretty much falling apart for no good reason other than I couldn’t stop thinking about what a pathetic childhood I had. It gave me the strength to realize that a lot of my reactions were based on what I was told, by therapists and self-help books, I should be feeling. Reading that article gave me the strength to witness my own experience in my own way and realize that falling apart was not a necessity in healing from trauma. Neither did I have to view myself as irrevocably damaged or having had my innocence stolen. I was never innocent. I think it’s a stupid construct. I don’t think you understood what I said in my post. I did not reiterate that I thought that anyone was absolutely "irrevocably damaged. When I said that I didn’t believe that (paraphrased from the article you quoted and which I referenced in my post) “purity sullied” did not mean that innocence had not been taken, that’s ALL I meant. And I didn’t mean total and complete innocence in all cases forever and ever amen. I merely meant it in the way in which I described in my post. YAY for women who don’t feel any of that. But they don’t speak for every woman. > [@](#): > > So let’s just further emphasize that my second paragraph, the one all about predictive factors of trauma, was more of an academic lecture supporting your argument than a refutation of what you were saying. People can believe all they want about what traumas are worse than other traumas but the bottom line is that while we can make predictions about whether a given individual is more likely to develop PTSD (based on duration, repetition, external vs. interpersonal, involves prolonged captivity, etc), it’s still completely dependent on the individual. Ummm, which I agreed with, and then clarified the small point over which I disagreed with \*\*Kalhoun \*\* > [@](#): > > Though now I have to take another exception… there is little evidence that repressed memory is something that actually happens. A great deal of credibility was granted to it during the 70s/80s Sybil-era of psychology but the more research we do, the more it’s clear that, barring physical head trauma, this is either a nonexistent or at least extremely rare phenomenon. And even if it _were_ real, > That someone can be ‘‘hypnotized and made to forget’’ a traumatic event is an even more troubling belief. …Ummmmm..What? Where did I say I believed that someone could be “hypnotized and made to forget”? What I actually said was merely (paraphrased) “unless a person is one of those that has forgotten” meaning that they they have forgotten the trauma, and/or part of their childhood. That does happen sometimes with childhood trauma (my former boyfriend for one, though he doesn’t remember why he doesn’t remember his childhood, his mom told me). In NO way have I said that they should then undergo hypnosis or whatever. > [@](#): > > Blaming the victim is such an easy thing for friends and family members to do if it means protecting the perpetrator – as Judith Herman points out, the choice is between remaining silent or taking an active stance against. Remaining silent is always the easiest choice. Culturally, societally, victims of child abuse and rape are up against a great Conspiracy of Silence… therefore we must take care to protect our credibility. Believing that hypnotism can resurface or repress memories is not in line with the goal of protecting credibility. Families have been destroyed due to the myth of repressed memories, and with every family that is destroyed this way, another true victim of child abuse is ignored, ostracized, and otherwise blanketed in that Conspiracy of Silence. Who is advocating blaming the victim or making them undergo hypnosis? Not I said the duck! 😃 Those cases DO exist , that’s the ONLY thing I brought up (and slightly at that), I said nothing in my post about what, if any, treatment they should undergo. You seem to be reading way more into my post than I discussed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-sets-fire-to-her-daughters-gloating-rapist/487363.md?page=18)