Mother Teresa - a fraud???

What about Oscar Romero? Haven’t people put forth an effort to have him canonized?

Funny, he was up for the Peace Prize-only to lose out to Mother Theresa.

But then, they just looked at him as a radical commie. :mad:

Seriously, what did she DO then, that people want her canonized?

WTF is this??? Bashing Mother Theresa? Wow, I never thought I’d live to see that. Talk about something coming completely out of left field.

I guess if one comes to the issue with the pre-existing assumption that “social progress” (whatever that is) requires the proliferation of abortion, divorce, and birth control, then I can see the opposition.

Clearly the Catholic position is that earthly pain and suffering are not the only ills in the world. If pain were the only evil they recognized, then they would embrace any measure that reduces pain, including euthanasia (excellent discussion of this between a Catholic and a euthanizer at the end of Miller’s novel A Canticle for Leibowitz.) That the end of any good enterprise should be the reduction of earthly pain and suffering is a materialist notion, not a religious or spiritual one.

And if she took money from dictators…well, do any of us check back to see where our money came from ultimately? Money is a fungible good, it doesn’t spend any differently because of where it’s been. Does it really matter where the money came from if something good is done with it? I suppose Guin thinks Mother Theresa should have been off rousing the proletariat to revolution like her buddy Red Romero, rather than working within the system that was in place. Well, maybe she figured that political fights were not hers to pick.

Basically, I think that athiestic materialists like myself and Christopher Hitchins would be judging her on a scale that the RCC doesn’t use, and by its own tenets ought not to use. The decision to beatify her isn’t made by the editorial board of Free Inquiry magazine, so I don’t think we can judge this decision on secular humanist scales.

WTF is this??? Bashing Mother Theresa? Wow, I never thought I’d live to see that. Talk about something coming completely out of left field.

I guess if one comes to the issue with the pre-existing assumption that “social progress” (whatever that is) requires the proliferation of abortion, divorce, and birth control, then I can see the opposition.

Clearly the Catholic position is that earthly pain and suffering are not the only ills in the world. If pain were the only evil they recognized, then they would embrace any measure that reduces pain, including euthanasia (excellent discussion of this between a Catholic and a euthanizer at the end of Miller’s novel A Canticle for Leibowitz.) That the end of any good enterprise should be the reduction of earthly pain and suffering is a materialist notion, not a religious or spiritual one.

And if she took money from dictators…well, do any of us check back to see where our money came from ultimately? Money is a fungible good, it doesn’t spend any differently because of where it’s been. Does it really matter where the money came from if something good is done with it? I suppose Guin thinks Mother Theresa should have been off rousing the proletariat to revolution like her buddy Red Romero, rather than working within the system that was in place. Well, maybe she figured that political fights were not hers to pick.

Basically, I think that athiestic materialists like myself and Christopher Hitchins would be judging her on a scale that the RCC doesn’t use, and by its own tenets ought not to use. The decision to beatify her isn’t made by the editorial board of Free Inquiry magazine, so I don’t think we can judge this decision on secular humanist scales.

I’d like to see more info (CITES, please) on what M.T. was supposedly doing with dictators.

I mean, JPII hung out with Castro, but as far as I could tell, he saw Cuba AND its leader as an opportunity for evangelization, and not a chance to get funding for the Vatican art gallery.

Mother Teresa info @ Rotten.com

That goes easy on MT - but does name some names and places. If Karl Rove leaked those infos to Bob Novak - it’d be made clear MT was not a religous ICON, but a religous analyst working for some Canadian think-tank.</satire>

Had MT somehow resolved Bangladesh, Kashmir and Tibet - that’d be three miracles right there.

Possibly, MT was incorporating the religious beliefs of the local population she was helping. I’m assuming she was mainly working with Hindus in India. Hinduism contains the concept of karma. According to definitions of Karma - suffering is required to achieve spiritual advancement. Think of suffering as payback for an earlier bad deed, from this life or a previous - all ending in a balance. The experience of suffering does not need to be ended. If you take a poor, suffering person and end their suffering and give them money, then you yourself take on their Karma you have just released. This general theory is partly to ‘blame’ for the cast system in India. There is the general thought that those born poor should be poor. Now, I’m not really sure how MT spent her funds, but ‘not giving them directly to the poor’ isn’t a reason to call her a fraud, AFAIK.

RexDart, I’m saying what she did wasn’t so great. “Red Romero”, as you call him, was calling for an end to the killing on BOTH sides, not rousing the proletariat.

…Nice lefty-bashing, but you missed the bits about how her facilities did nothing to help the sick. Anyway, in the world as it exists, most people don’t have a problem with victims of rape getting abortions, or women who are being beaten and abused getting divorces. I don’t think it’s particularly hard to see why people would find opposition to those things just a bit hard-hearted - especially when it’s coming from someone who was allegedly the personification of compassion.

So then… someone who raises massive amounts of money to help the sick and ailing and then doesn’t use it to help the sick and ailing isn’t a fraud? Especially when she insisted on the best modern medical care for herself? I’m missing the logic here. Nevermind that the principled abortion opponent we’re talking about backed Indira Gandhi’s forced sterilization of the poor.

I think most of us would have a problem accepting money directly from dictators, money-launderers, and thieves, yes.

This is true, of course, and it’s the heart of the issue. Mother Theresa was famous and followed the church party line, which is what gets one canonized. The standard Hitchens et al are holding her too is rather a more objective one- did she actually help anybody? She definitely followed the church’s rules, but how much good she did is an open question. I don’t care much if people praise her for doing the first, but if she’s got a reputation for compassion and helping the poor, something ought to back it up.

RexDart: read a little bit on Romero’s history and El Salvador too before showing the ignorance that you are spewing right now.
http://www.icomm.ca/carecen/page41.html
The only rousing “Red Romero” (and listened to him, yes I am/was Salvadorian) did was to tell dead squad members and the rogue military (catholic also) to not kill defenseless people, he screamed to “cease the repression”, not to tell the people to revolt, only to work for justice. And for that he was killed. Only once before I have seen such a stunning show of ignorance as the one you just did.
http://www.icomm.ca/carecen/page25.html
http://www.silk.net/RelEd/ezineromero.htm
http://www.stpetersnottingham.org/saints/romero.html

I have spent the last few days reading this text if anyone has doubts about this woman please read this material. MT is a complete and utter fraud and why the world media was so enchanted by this evil woman is beyond understanding.

http://www.meteorbooks.com/

My apologies if I got Romero wrong, I had only a passing familiarity with him and googled his name before posting to get an idea. I decided the best way to get a pulse on him was to explore some of the things Catholics said about him, as he was a Catholic figure. I saw things supporting him from people who sounded sympathetic to socialist ideals and things opposing him from what I thought to be the mainstream RCC line of thought. Perhaps all he was doing was trying to stop bloodshed, which I would normally applaud.

But people screaming for “justice” have done alot of wrong in this world. The socialists scream for “social justice” and give us nothing but an equal spreading of pain and misery, they use coercion to strip people of their lands, property, and livelihoods in endless bloody revolutions. Revolutions nowadays are nothing but a fight between rival gangs, one group who took all the stuff by force 100 years ago and another who wants to take all the stuff by force now. 100 years from now they will be the oppressors, and the cycle continues. I can’t see any side in that conflict as good. Rather, the good is in laying back and taking no side.

As for Mother Theresa, she is an icon of the 20th century, a figure who has been held forth since my infancy and that of many others here as a great person. Over all those years, she continued to be touted as a great person, one who did great things, and her position was never challenged. I never heard a word of this criticism until just now. Pardon me if I’m a bit suspicious of those who attack her and seem to bring their leftist ideological baggage along with them when they do so.

And rightist ideological baggage is better?

Sorry, being there I only saw Romero as doing the right Christian thing of calling a spade a spade regarding repression, Unlike the truly partisan priests in Nicaragua, Pope Paul II did not denounce him, as JPII’s opposition to communism is total, you should know that he visited the grave of Romero, Romero was no socialist (yet another very ignorant assumption), he was accused to be in favor of liberation theology but this is not how he began, his drift towards denouncing the repression of the extreme right came after forces had already killed other priests and nuns, I read what you posted after that “But” and I am still amazed at how shallow it is that position. Back then I got partially duped by the media thinking that the groups in conflict “were the same”. But it was not the same in El Salvador, after coming to the US and reading the truth commission, I see now that the ones that where doing the most harm were indeed the ones denounced by Romero.

The media in El Salvador always whitewashed the repression, this whitewash then was regularly picked by the media in the US, just like the US media took recently the swill from the right wing media in the recent Venezuela case.

All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing…" Edmund Burke

I do agree with your points regarding Mother Theresa though.

Interesting bit: In my last visit to the old country I saw the finished Cathedral, the impressive painting on the cupola has an amazing view of heaven, close to the edge of the circular painting there are many images of great Catholics of the past looking down on you, one of them is Mother Teresa… next to Monsignor Romero…

GIGObuster, given that you were there and saw the events in action I will bow to your opinion on this one. Likely none of the folks whose opinions on Romero I read were in the position you were.

I still have a tough time finding a “right” side in a revolution, but perhaps your observations are correct. My studies of Latin America focused on European colonization up through the time of Simon Bolivar, and so I’m not as well versed in the present situation as I’d like. So I’ll just defer to you on this one.

This is from the link I posted above. Please read this material it is the most detailed account of what goes on in India with names, dates, video evidence, transcripts and interviews with poeople who delt with MT on a daily basis.

http://www.meteorbooks.com/chap7.html

Then, you haven’t been paying much attention. I’ve been aware for years of many of the things which are mentionned in this thread, and had a total lack of respect for MT. Actually, I’m pretty certain there already has been threads criticizing her on this board in the past for the same reasons stated in this one.

The author of the book IceRigger linked to makes it clear he’s been criticizing her for years, and the book is years old. So is the Hitchens film, and he’s been critcizing MT for some time.