# Mother Teresa - Saint or Scourge? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792 "2015-12-18T18:11:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/21 "2015-12-18T20:37:16Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Can someone briefly explain what she did with respect to these people? The article linked to in the OP doesn’t mention them. Q[uestionable relationships](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa): > [@](#): > > n 1981, Teresa flew to Haiti to accept the Legion d’Honneur from the right-wing dictator Jean-Claude Duvalier, who, after his ouster, was found to have stolen millions of dollars from the impoverished country. There she said that the Duvaliers “loved their poor”, and that “their love was reciprocated”.[citation needed] > > In The Missionary Position, Hitchens levelled criticism at what was perceived to be Mother Teresa’s endorsement of the aggressively atheist regime of Enver Hoxha in communist Albania. She had visited Albania in August 1989, where she was received by Hoxha’s widow, Nexhmije, Foreign Minister Reis Malile, Minister of Health, Ahmet Kamberi, the Chairman of the People’s Assembly Petro Dode, and other state and party officials. She subsequently laid a bouquet on Hoxha’s grave, and placed a wreath on the statue of Mother Albania, without commenting on the Albanian Communist party’s human rights violations and suppression of religion.[6]:82 However, her supporters defended such associations, saying she had to deal with political realities of the time in order to lobby for her causes. By the time of her death, the Missionaries of Charity had houses in most Communist countries. > > She accepted money from the British publisher Robert Maxwell, who, as was later revealed, embezzled UK£450 million from his employees’ pension funds. There is no suggestion that she was aware of any theft before accepting the donation in either case. Criticism does focus on Teresa’s plea for leniency in the Charles Keating case, where Keating was charged with fraud following high profile business failures. Keating donated millions of dollars to Mother Teresa and lent her his private jet when she visited the United States. She refused to return the money, and praised Keating repeatedly.[7] There has been a lack of media investigation of her relationships to these individuals,[citation needed] though Christopher Hitchens was a strident critic. > > She supported Licio Gelli’s nomination for the Nobel Prize in Literature.[8] Gelli is known for being the head of the Propaganda Due masonic lodge, which was implicated in various murders and high-profile corruption cases in Italy, as well as having close connections with the neo-fascist Italian Social Movement and the Argentine Military Junta. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/22 "2015-12-18T20:41:58Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > At her death, Calcutta’s poor turned out by the hundreds of thousands to give her honor. This is actually a very good point. If she was just a horrible monster, just withholding care for conversion and whatnot, why did almost a million people (according to a CNN article on her funeral - [http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9709/13/teresa.service/](http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9709/13/teresa.service/) ) including the poorest of the poor line the streets for her funeral? I’m inclined to believe that perhaps they thought that Mother Teresa eased the suffering of the poor and did a great service to the people she took care of. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/23 "2015-12-18T20:50:13Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > On the other hand, she was hated by a rich white guy who never did anything to help the poor. (It’s worth remembering that Hitchens spend most of his life promoting communism, so he certainly shares responsibility for an enormous amount of suffering among the global poor.) Why on earth is Hitchens’ color relevant? Unless of course you’re a racist who believes white people always lie. Facts have no color and Hitchens’ book on the old fraud Mother Theresa is extremely well-researched. It certainly opened my eyes. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/24 "2015-12-18T20:53:17Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > This is actually a very good point. If she was just a horrible monster, just withholding care for conversion and whatnot, why did almost a million people (according to a CNN article on her funeral - [http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9709/13/teresa.service/](http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9709/13/teresa.service/) ) including the poorest of the poor line the streets for her funeral? > > I’m inclined to believe that perhaps they thought that Mother Teresa eased the suffering of the poor and did a great service to the people she took care of. Why did [millions of Russians cry when Stalin died](http://rbth.com/society/2013/03/05/russians_remember_how_they_felt_the_day_stalin_died_23521.html)? Perhaps millions cried out of relief, while others showed up in hundreds of thousands just to witness that she (like Stalin) was really dead. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/25 "2015-12-18T20:57:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Q[uestionable relationships](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa): And from the same article: > [@](#): > > After Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi’s suspension of civil liberties in 1975, Mother Teresa said: “People are happier. There are more jobs. There are no strikes.” These approving comments were seen as a result of the friendship between Teresa and the Congress Party. Mother Teresa’s comments were even criticized outside India within Catholic media. , and this nasty bit about secret baptisms: > [@](#): > > Mother Teresa encouraged members of her order to secretly baptize dying patients, without regard to the individual’s religion. Susan Shields, a former member of the Missionaries of Charity, writes that "Sisters were to ask each person in danger of death if he wanted a ‘ticket to heaven’. An affirmative reply was to mean consent to baptism. The sister was then to pretend that she was just cooling the patient’s head with a wet cloth, while in fact she was baptizing him, saying quietly the necessary words. Secrecy was important so that it would not come to be known that Mother Teresa’s sisters were baptizing Hindus and Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/26 "2015-12-18T21:19:20Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > This is actually a very good point. If she was just a horrible monster, just withholding care for conversion and whatnot, why did almost a million people (according to a CNN article on her funeral - [http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9709/13/teresa.service/](http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9709/13/teresa.service/) ) including the poorest of the poor line the streets for her funeral? > > I’m inclined to believe that perhaps they thought that Mother Teresa eased the suffering of the poor and did a great service to the people she took care of. Yes, but “We believe this person is doing a great service” is a very different thing from “this person actually is doing a great service”. And the photos of her missions seem to paint a very different story. Relevant: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/tZiYgZ3Hvag/maxresdefault.jpg "FreeOK 2015 - Seth Andrews: The Mother of Bad Ideas") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZiYgZ3Hvag&t=564) Also, it would be news to me that Hitchens was a habitual liar. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/27 "2015-12-18T21:28:44Z")
I think the two options are not necessarily opposites. 1. Was she a scourge? 2. Was she a saint? Those of us outside the church can judge 1, but not 2. And even if the answer to 1 is yes, the answer to 2 can be yes. I am not a religious person and have no opinion on saintdom. The RCC gets to define it any old way they please, and if they decide that Hitler is a saint, Hitler is a saint. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/28 "2015-12-18T21:31:34Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > On the other hand, she was hated by a rich white guy who never did anything to help the poor. Impossible! He helped the poor by being rich. Sheesh. It’s like you don’t even understand economics. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/29 "2015-12-18T21:33:19Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Impossible! He helped the poor by being rich. Sheesh. It’s like you don’t even understand economics. oh snap! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/30 "2015-12-18T21:55:03Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > This is actually a very good point. If she was just a horrible monster, just withholding care for conversion and whatnot, why did almost a million people (according to a CNN article on her funeral - [http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9709/13/teresa.service/](http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9709/13/teresa.service/) ) including the poorest of the poor line the streets for her funeral? > > I’m inclined to believe that perhaps they thought that Mother Teresa eased the suffering of the poor and did a great service to the people she took care of. Anyone who was under Mother Teresa’s care probably didn’t live to attend her funeral. They were hospices, remember, so anyone who entered wasn’t expected to make it out alive. But if you operate a hospice, you are expected to try to mitigate your patients’ suffering, not refuse to buy painkillers because the suffering of the innocent glorifies your god, and if people are being sent to your hospice with treatable illnesses, then perhaps you should put some effort into providing real medical care and not just a place to die. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/31 "2015-12-19T01:44:20Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Why on earth is Hitchens’ color relevant? Unless of course you’re a racist who believes white people always lie. Facts have no color and Hitchens’ book on the old fraud Mother Theresa is extremely well-researched. It certainly opened my eyes. I suppose I’m just following the trend, which seems to be that whenever someone does something we don’t like, we call them a “white man”, even [when they aren’t one](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/9/harry-reid-says-clarence-thomas-white-man-rant-aga/). But that said, the people of Calcutta loved Mother Teresa. For a rich white westerners to say that Mother Teresa actually fooled and harmed them certainty smacks of condescending attitude, implying that the poor of Calcutta aren’t smart enough to judge what’s in their own best interests. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/32 "2015-12-19T04:38:27Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > On the other hand, she was hated by a rich white guy who never did anything to help the poor. And who apparently didn’t even know that the “Mother” part is the treatment usually given to nuns (some orders use Sister for most nuns and leave Mother for the Mother Superior), see cite from him in post 3. Such willful ignorance doesn’t exactly lead me to trust anything coming from him. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/33 "2015-12-19T05:17:10Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And who apparently didn’t even know that the “Mother” part is the treatment usually given to nuns (some orders use Sister for most nuns and leave Mother for the Mother Superior), see cite from him in post 3. Such willful ignorance doesn’t exactly lead me to trust anything coming from him. Sorry, what? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/34 "2015-12-19T05:28:20Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And who apparently didn’t even know that the “Mother” part is the treatment usually given to nuns (some orders use Sister for most nuns and leave Mother for the Mother Superior), see cite from him in post 3. Such willful ignorance doesn’t exactly lead me to trust anything coming from him. I’m pretty sure he knew that. He was being sarcastic. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/35 "2015-12-19T06:18:16Z")
I’ve never seen a ton of clear and convincing evidence of Mother Terasa being a monster, a lot of Hitchens critiques of her hinge on the very different worldview of the deeply religious and atheists. There’s different types of atheists, I’m an atheist because I don’t believe, but I was raised Catholic and have a pretty firm understanding of the theology and how they think. I believe that there are different moral codes that people can choose to live by. Utilitarianism is not one that I particularly like for a host of reasons. Hitchens on the other hand was an atheist utilitarian, who only looked through a very narrow lens of that worldview. So when he blasts Teresa for her words that she “wasn’t as social worker” and it “wasn’t her goal to alleviate poverty”, frankly is just judging her by a utilitarian worldview. Teresa inarguably worked to lower the mortality rate associated with being poor, but she did so in a way consistent with a strict adherence to traditional Catholic values. Christianity by and large does not see poverty, or even a life of suffering, as a terrible thing. That’s a very atheist utilitarian world view. Can you feed yourself? Can you clothe yourself? Can you acquire shelter? Can you acquire treatment for disease? A certain type of Catholic worldview would not see it as a terrible thing if you answer yes to all of those but you happen to be very poor. Teresa strongly believed in the sanctity of life, and if you note a lot of her work relates to doing things to try and make sure poor people could enjoy good medical health and long lives. A traditional Catholic view has always placed great emphasis on never surrendering to death. No big dose of morphine and a graceful exit–note JPII very specifically made sure that in his final days nothing was done medically to hasten his exit, even though his last few weeks were not enjoyable ones. Hitchens just had a real problem with the fact Teresa didn’t view earthly poverty as the end all be all of “terrible things” and it’s a very Christian idea that earthly misery is something to be put up with–and yes, even glorified to a degree. Early 20th century prosperity doctrine has served to transform Christianity to a more pagan religion in which you do x to receive y in magical reward, but the Catholic Church doesn’t follow the line and never really has (and mainstream Christianity never did until some theologically retarded developments in America.) Aroup Chatterjee has several reasons to be taken somewhat skeptically in regard to Mother Teresa. He disliked the way her actions and words portrayed his home town (Calcutta) and has thus some degree of personal animus and reason to negatively portray Teresa. He also made a big deal about “mismanagement of finance.” Okay, whether that’s true or not isn’t super relevant. There’s no evidence she fraudulently enriched herself or anything like that. Her worst sin might be that there was a “perception” any money given to her organization would be spent on medical care, and some of it wasn’t. But that’s true of all charities. She wasn’t a professional accountant or business person. There’s not necessarily any malice in being bad at managing large sums of money. In fact most people go to college and are then given experience managing smaller sums of money until they’ve earned a position of trust managing large sums of money. Mother Teresa didn’t have any of that in her life so it’d kind of be shocking if she had managed charitable donations well or even competently. That’s why in the first world charitable organizations long ago adopted the management and fiscal practices of businesses. The Catholic Church has long been on the bad side of history in that department, being very slow to adopt modern financial behaviors in the Vatican and while most of say the church’s dioceses and organizations in America are ran quite professionally in some parts of the world (like mid-20th century India, for example) things weren’t quite ran that way. Without any clear indication of financial malice, I default to the logical assumption to not ascribe to malice what can be ascribed to incompetence. Finally, Chatterjee criticizes the quality of care offered at her facilities as lacking. This is undeniably true–it was lacking. If you had pretty much anywhere else to go other than one of her facilities, you’d be better off going there. Except the thing was, she was serving people that in classist India were not being served. They did not have access to good or adequate medical care. She was doing the best she was able to do (which is far different than ‘the best possible’) with limited expertise and resources, and serving people that frankly the powerful elites in India didn’t give much of a shit about (and still honestly do not, India is one of the most class stratified countries in the world.) But anyway most of this doesn’t really matter. The Vatican doesn’t beatify and then canonize people because they are great utilitarian secular humanists it puts a hell of a lot more weight on conversions and such than it ever would on purely secular deeds. So many of these criticisms from an atheist perspective kind of miss the point of why the RCC saints people in the first place. From a Catholic perspective it is truly the case that if you’re choosing between converting someone and saving their soul and saving their life, saving the soul will always take precedence. I don’t agree with that perspective because I disbelieve in a soul, a heaven-or-hell hereafter and etc, but within the logical constraints of Catholic morality I don’t see much to condemn Mother Terasa for, that we actually have evidence to support. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/36 "2015-12-19T07:07:37Z")
It seems likely that she died an atheist: > **[Letters Reveal Mother Teresa's Secret](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/letters-reveal-mother-teresas-secret/)** > > Book Of Iconic Nun's Letters Shows She Was Tormented By Her Doubts In Her Faith Not relevant to her benevolence, but certainly relevant to official sainting. ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/37 "2015-12-19T14:29:56Z")
It is easy to criticize, but hard to emulate. The fact is, Mother Teresa did work to mitigate suffering of humans. When Hitchens does something even remotely similar, he earns the right to criticize. Or take the great humanitarian , Bill Clinton. he runs an allegedly charitable foundation, and collects billions of $$. Yet, he lives a life of luxury, dines at the best restaurants, travels first class, and lives in luxury-does he merit any praise? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/38 "2015-12-19T14:47:03Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > It is easy to criticize, but hard to emulate. The fact is, Mother Teresa did work to mitigate suffering of humans. By what mechanism did she mitigate suffering? People gave her money so she could use it to mitigate suffering of humans, but what did she do with that money that achieved that goal? As I see it, she did not desire the mitigation of suffering, instead seeing the suffering of the weak as beautiful and holy. She embezzled money that should have gone to a worthy cause, building missions instead of buying painkillers. > [@](#): > > When Hitchens does something even remotely similar, he earns the right to criticize. Christopher Hitchens willingly allowed himself to be fucking [_tortured_](http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/08/hitchens200808) to mitigate the suffering of humans. Sacks of shit like Donald Trump still advocate waterboarding prisoners, but Hitchens was a man who could say from first hand experience exactly what kind of evil this is. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/39 "2015-12-19T15:09:24Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > The fact is, Mother Teresa did work to mitigate suffering of humans. When Hitchens does something even remotely similar, he earns the right to criticize. Nonsense. The fact that we do not live up to someone’s good deeds does not remove our right to decry their misdeeds. Particularly if that person is being held up as a _literal saint_, and is often seen as a near-perfect human being. Particularly when their misdeeds throw fairly extreme shadows on their good deeds. The criticism of Teresa reflects _explicitly_ on her good deeds. The criticism is that her work to mitigate the suffering of humans was horribly misportrayed, and was nowhere near as positive as she is given credit for, or indeed for what we would expect, given the money she was given. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/40 "2015-12-19T16:02:08Z")
I vote scourge. The “saint” part is entirely hype. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792.md?page=3)