# Mother Teresa - Saint or Scourge? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792 "2015-12-18T18:11:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/61 "2015-12-20T01:24:21Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > In this case I disagree. The service she provided was more or less defined as Hospice care. [Hospice](https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome-psyapi2&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8&q=definiton%20hospice&oq=definiton%20hospice&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.5669j0j7): _a home providing care for the sick, especially the terminally ill_. I think that more or less has the built in definition of needing pain medication, terminally ill situations. Reread what you wrote: you say what she provided was hospice care by definition, a definition that includes provision of pain medication, and that she didn’t provide pain medication. That means by definition she wasn’t providing hospice care. I’m not trying to play games. I’m saying that you have certain expectations for what she should have done, and they simply don’t match what she was trying to do. What services DID she provide that make you think it was hospice care? > [@](#): > > I think her (stated) attitude that suffering brings people closer to God demonstrates a DEFINITE agenda. A self serving agenda. As I said before, I find her ideology appalling. But someone with an appalling ideology can still make a material difference for good in someone’s life. The question is twofold: 1. What evidence is there that her actions **prevented** anyone from getting pain medication who otherwise would have gotten it? 2. What actions did she take that made the lives of people around her better? Show me that she persuaded other charity workers not to give opiates to patients, show me that she went to government and persuaded them to channel all their welfare for sick impoverished folks through her, show me something like that, and I’ll agree. But that’s not what I’ve heard about her. I’ve heard that she did a helluva lot of good for poor people in India, but because she didn’t do enough, people are angry with her. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/62 "2015-12-20T01:27:31Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1- yes, they are better inside than sleeping on the street > 2- What medicine? Reports says besides aspirin (or maybe an antibiotic) they really got nothing. Besides aspirin and antibiotics, probably the two biggest pharmaceutical advances since distilled alcohol? Would these people otherwise have gotten aspirin or antibiotics? > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > In this case, I’m going to have to lean toward what was better for Calcutta. A _lasting_ improvement in conditions there could have easily been spurred by delivering basic (by western standards) medical care and by access to contraception, things Theresa could have arranged for with the donated sums but did not. The perfect, here, is the enemy of the good. I am unwilling to blame someone for not doing enough good with their money; that’s a losing game. If you can show that she took money that other people would have gotten and would have spent better, maybe I’ll be persuaded. But it seems to me that she was a fundraising powerhouse and entered an area that had been neglected by the wealthy; without her, the poor in India would have had nobody raising funds among the wealthy for their benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/63 "2015-12-20T01:31:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Reread what you wrote: you say what she provided was hospice care by definition, a definition that includes provision of pain medication, and that she didn’t provide pain medication. That means by definition she wasn’t providing hospice care. > > I’m not trying to play games. I’m saying that you have certain expectations for what she should have done, and they simply don’t match what she was trying to do. > > What services DID she provide that make you think it was hospice care? > > As I said before, I find her ideology appalling. But someone with an appalling ideology can still make a material difference for good in someone’s life. The question is twofold: > > 1. What evidence is there that her actions **prevented** anyone from getting pain medication who otherwise would have gotten it? > 2. What actions did she take that made the lives of people around her better? > > Show me that she persuaded other charity workers not to give opiates to patients, show me that she went to government and persuaded them to channel all their welfare for sick impoverished folks through her, show me something like that, and I’ll agree. > > But that’s not what I’ve heard about her. I’ve heard that she did a helluva lot of good for poor people in India, but because she didn’t do enough, people are angry with her. Really? Let’s say I am a billionaire. I set up a 10 Million dollar care facility. But, I say… well suffering builds character so I am not going to spend any money beyond aspirin and NyQuil and anti biotics. No doctors either. Or nurses. Just beds. Because suffering builds character. Would that, honestly, not sound insanely bizarre to you? It does not make my actions any less questionable just because I did not actively stop any doctors from coming in my facility and distributing medecine. My stance is still, really really really… bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/64 "2015-12-20T01:33:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The perfect, here, is the enemy of the good. I am unwilling to blame someone for not doing enough good with their money; that’s a losing game. It’s not clear to me that what she was doing was all that “good”. That’ll have to be established before you can fairly say I’m playing the game you describe. ---
**Author:** ![Scandic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@Scandic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scandic)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/65 "2015-12-20T02:11:19Z")
I totally agree with Christopher Hitchens ---
**Author:** ![Scandic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@Scandic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scandic)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/66 "2015-12-20T02:38:41Z")
> [@Scandic](#): > > I totally agree with Christopher Hitchens Or maybe not.:smack: I agree with some of his statements ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/67 "2015-12-20T03:22:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Besides aspirin and antibiotics, probably the two biggest pharmaceutical advances since distilled alcohol? Would these people otherwise have gotten aspirin or antibiotics?.. antibiotics are not always the friend the dying. Especially for those dying in pain. When my grandmother was dying, she developed some infection which her doctors treated with antibiotics, and when she was well enough be cogent, she asked to please not administer antibiotics the next time. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/68 "2015-12-20T04:09:07Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Really? > > Let’s say I am a billionaire. I set up a 10 Million dollar care facility. But, I say… well suffering builds character so I am not going to spend any money beyond aspirin and NyQuil and anti biotics. No doctors either. Or nurses. Just beds. Because suffering builds character. > > Would that, honestly, not sound insanely bizarre to you? Perhaps big red letters will help: I FIND HER IDEOLOGY APPALLING. I can hold that thought, and **also** hold the thought that she offered material benefit to many, many people. Can you? > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It’s not clear to me that what she was doing was all that “good”. That’ll have to be established before you can fairly say I’m playing the game you describe. [Here’s a cite that lists some facts about her.](http://www.legacy.com/news/explore-history/article/20-facts-about-mother-teresa) > [@](#): > > 1. One of her first projects was to teach the children of the poor – drawing on her experience with teaching the children of the rich. She didn’t have any equipment or supplies this time, but she taught them to read and write by writing in the dirt with sticks. > > 2. In addition to promoting literacy, Teresa taught the children basic hygiene. She visited their families, inquiring about their needs and helping provide for them when she could. According to [Wikipedia:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa#International_charity) > [@](#): > > In 1982, at the height of the Siege of Beirut, Mother Teresa rescued 37 children trapped in a front line hospital by brokering a temporary cease-fire between the Israeli army and Palestinian guerrillas.[55] Accompanied by Red Cross workers, she travelled through the war zone to the devastated hospital to evacuate the young patients. [This article about her hospice is mixed:](http://www.telegraphindia.com/1070902/asp/7days/story_8265270.asp) > [@](#): > > n old, shrunken man lets out a bone-rattling cough. Others — emaciated, vacant-eyed — lie prostrate on their narrow beds. Many of them are too ill to leave this place alive and, as if to underline that fact, a faint stench of decay and death hangs in the air. This is the men’s ward of Nirmal Hriday, the home for the dying and destitute that Mother Teresa set up in Calcutta in 1952. At 4.15 pm, when the August sun is still blazing outside, dinner begins to be served — a meal of two pieces of bread and a portion of potato curry. Missionaries of Charity nuns and foreign volunteers flit about, getting ready to feed the inmates. And an elderly Irishman serves them water from a big plastic bucket. This is bad. And it is better than the folks there would otherwise get. Both can be true at once. Except for this line from later in the story: > [@](#): > > [Hitchen’s book is] a shocking indictment, and one that seems even more so in the context of the enormous wealth that the order apparently enjoys. No one knows exactly how much money it has — the nuns are not telling — but disaffected former members have gone on record to say that the MoC is sitting on funds that run into millions of dollars. If that’s true–if they’re sitting on lots of money and deliberately not using it to fulfill their mission–that’s exactly the sort of evidence I’m saying will lead to my condemning them. If Teresa did that, I’ll condemn her for it. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > antibiotics are not always the friend the dying. Especially for those dying in pain. When my grandmother was dying, she developed some infection which her doctors treated with antibiotics, and when she was well enough be cogent, she asked to please not administer antibiotics the next time. Huh. I mean, I’m sorry for your grandma, and no disrespect to her or you, but I don’t think that’s exactly what we’re talking about here. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/69 "2015-12-20T04:12:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Perhaps big red letters will help: I FIND HER IDEOLOGY APPALLING. Well, you have a very odd way of demonstrating that ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/70 "2015-12-20T04:18:06Z")
[This blog post](http://www.deeshaa.org/wuellenweber-where-are-her-millions/) suggests serious financial irregularities, of precisely the sort that I find most damning. If Teresa were doing the best she could figure out to do with her resources, that’s one thing. If her organization is siphoning off charitable donations and not putting them toward helping the poor, that’s fucking wretched. I don’t know how reliable that blog post is, but to the extent that it’s accurate, she sounds terrible. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/71 "2015-12-20T04:18:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If that’s true–if they’re sitting on lots of money and deliberately not using it to fulfill their mission–that’s exactly the sort of evidence I’m saying will lead to my condemning them. If Teresa did that, I’ll condemn her for it. Why are you engaging in a conversation in the manner you are doing, when, you appear to not know the basic facts? It is pretty much common knowledge, among people who dislike/distrust Mother Theresa that her charity will not open the books for inspection. Slate, Forbes, Wikipedia, Hithcens, the other journalist on this thread, and 60 minuets (I think) have all talked about it… many others too. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/72 "2015-12-20T04:23:11Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Well, you have a very odd way of demonstrating that I disagree. LHOD is able to get past personal feelings on the matter and come to a rational conclusion. Hopefully that’s not “odd”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/73 "2015-12-20T04:24:41Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Why are you engaging in a conversation in the manner you are doing, when, you appear to not know the basic facts? Thanks, Robert, for your input; I think you and I are done here. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/74 "2015-12-20T04:45:10Z")
Any definitive claims about the finances are not really supported by facts. We know that Teresa wasn’t living high on the hog. If anyone has followed the Vatican itself and its finances in the past 15 years you’d know that the Catholic Church has a long history of financial mismanagement, the Missionaries of Charity are/were no different. Some countries like the United States Catholic organizations are ran pretty well, because they are subject to laws on non-profits and the tax code generally. But say, the Vatican’s bank, subject only to the laws of the Vatican–not so much. Or a Catholic Charity in a country like India with historically lax financial regulations, also you’re not going to see very professional finance. What exactly do you guys think the sisters are likely to have spent money on other than outreach to the poor and missionary work? It’s really the latter that some people have issue with, but I don’t really understand how you can donate to a missionary and expect none of your money will go to proselytizing. As for the quality of care, I’ve yet to see anyone present real evidence that she was denying people access to opiates because she wanted them to be “glorified by suffering”, you’re taking one statement she made about how suffering can be glorified and then making claims that is why she didn’t have opiates at her hospices, even though there is no clear link between the two. Her hospice facilities were incompetently ran–criminally incompetently by Western medical standards. But we can’t judge them by Western standards. Everything I’ve seen suggests the Indians would’ve died at home or in the street with no care at all if not for these hospices. These people were not choosing her hospices over modern, 21st century western hospice. I also find it specious people claim she “easily could have” gotten doctors and pharmacists on staff to dispense and administer opiates. I don’t know if that’s true or not true, but I know that most Indian doctors are seen as upper class, and upper class Indians, particularly in the mid-20th century in which the majority of Teresa’s life happened, wouldn’t be interested in working a slum. I’m starting to think a lot of you people don’t have a clear understanding on how many people live in India and how poor some of them are. I’m not talking 1975 India but 2014 India it was reported that 600m Indians had essentially no access to medical care at all. Lack of access to medical care is the number one reason, in estimates I’ve seen, that have Indian life expectancy lacking Western levels. So yeah, I’m sure Mother Teresa is so damn rich and powerful she could’ve easily gotten tons of doctors to her slums to work when you know, the government of India can’t do it for 2x as many people as live in the United States. To me the only clearly objectionable stuff about Teresa are her religious beliefs. But the organization canonizing her is a religious organization. I found it particularly hilarious when a recent review of her works condemned her “harsh” views on abortion, divorce or etc–views that if she did not hold she could’ve been disallowed running a Catholic Charity, and in theory could’ve been excommunicated (she would’ve been in fact, had she expressed such views too publicly.) This is the Catholic Church, they don’t believe in abortion, they don’t believe (generally) in divorce. The worst thing she did theologically is the baptism of dying Hindus and Muslims, ignorant of the significance of the act. That goes against general morality and also the actual laws of the Church, and would actually in my opinion be the strongest grounds theologically for opposing her canonization. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/75 "2015-12-20T04:54:58Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I also find it specious people claim she “easily could have” gotten doctors and pharmacists on staff to dispense and administer opiates. I don’t know if that’s true or not true, but I know that most Indian doctors are seen as upper class, and upper class Indians, particularly in the mid-20th century in which the majority of Teresa’s life happened, wouldn’t be interested in working a slum. I’m sure they could of found at least one doctor. (If they had bothered to use (a portion of) the millions of dollars available to make an honest, detailed, search) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/76 "2015-12-20T04:59:35Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Any definitive claims about the finances are not really supported by facts. We know that Teresa wasn’t living high on the hog. If anyone has followed the Vatican itself and its finances in the past 15 years you’d know that the Catholic Church has a long history of financial mismanagement, the Missionaries of Charity are/were no different. Yeah–the blog post I read, and other things I’ve read about her, don’t ever have proof. At the same time, they have circumstantial evidence. It’s why I’m making my opinions very contingent. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/77 "2015-12-20T05:02:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > … > Huh. I mean, I’m sorry for your grandma, and no disrespect to her or you, but I don’t think that’s exactly what we’re talking about here. I think you missed my point. There comes a time when prolonging life is no longer a good thing to do. And unlike contraception, where mother Teresa was following stance of the Catholic church, this is one where the church would be okay with mercy. The Catholic church draws a strong distinction between taking action to hasten a death and refraining from action that would prolong life. The church does not require you to try to prolong the life of a person dying in pain. Yet mother Teresa is accused of having done that, even when there were no pain killers, and not enough food or basic bodily care. That is a form of harm. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/78 "2015-12-20T05:02:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yeah–the blog post I read, and other things I’ve read about her, don’t ever have proof. At the same time, they have circumstantial evidence. It’s why I’m making my opinions very contingent. The fact that the charity refuses to “open the books” for review is proof enough for me. (I thought open books was supposed to be a requirement for a charity…) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/79 "2015-12-20T05:35:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Robert163** : > > She is not someone who refused to give a homeless person $3 and prayed for them instead. She actually ran a facility for people in need. I do not see how anyone can defend her, even to give her the “benefit of the doubt”. To me her actions (inactions) are clearly wrong, biased, and self serving. You just said it right there: People can defend her because she didn’t refuse help to the homeless, and ran facilities for people in need. Are you claiming that those are indefensible acts? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792/80 "2015-12-20T06:38:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You just said it right there: People can defend her because she didn’t refuse help to the homeless, and ran facilities for people in need. Are you claiming that those are indefensible acts? I think my opinion on the matter is quite clear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mother-teresa-saint-or-scourge/740792.md?page=5)