# Motherfucking idiots in my apartment building **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 9, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282 "2004-07-09T14:26:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/21 "2004-07-09T19:37:44Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Some other links. [From the Genetic Society of America](http://genetics.faseb.org/genetics/g-gsa/careers05.shtml) More interesting, but the scientist is just beginning his research, and has no results. The assumptions stated in the introductory paragraph could just as easily have been reached from anecdotal evidence. I’ll be interested to see the result of this study. Perhaps a good experiment would be to have an experienced trainer try to train a bunch of non-traditional breeds in sheep herding and see which ones perform better at the end. Hell, if a pig could be a sheep dog, surely a bloodhound or a lab could be. 😉 > [@](#): > > . . . and from this nonscientific but well-documented site, [Factors associated with aggression in dogs](http://www.allbreed.net/chows/Train/factors.htm) Highly unscientific; I’ll wait for research. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/22 "2004-07-09T19:39:11Z")
[Heritability of Herding-related Traits](http://www.sheepdog.com/genetics/summary.html): > [@](#): > > Herding ability is generally described as the ability to round up and control livestock. The intensity of the desire to herd is called keenness. For evaluation purposes, it is useful to further break down herding ability into individual traits that presumably can be inherited separately. However, as will be discussed later, some of these behaviors commonly occur together. One important trait, the behaviors collectively known as “eye”, can be further separated into two parts. The first, which is the tendency to watch and follow moving objects, is not unique to Border Collies. Other breeds such as Greyhounds also have this tendency. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/23 "2004-07-09T19:42:04Z")
> [@qcomdrj](#): > > . . . When two breeds of dog make up 34% of the fatal attacks, well, one is lead to believe that yes, they are inherently mean dogs . . . That’s a very good starting point for a scientific study; it’s not a valid conclusion on its own, though. Another starting point, starting from the same information, is that owners of pits and rottenwilders are more likely to train-or allow–their dogs to be vicious than owners of other breeds. It would be interesting to see the conclusions of any research done on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/24 "2004-07-09T19:42:57Z")
Okay, you can deny the research if you prefer, but it’s clear that you’re working from superstition and bias, not science. I’ve made the _prima facie_ case, showing that geneticists (not “amateur evolutionists,” whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean) accept that canine behavior can be inherited. If you want to claim that there’s such a thing as a geneticist who disagrees, it’s up to you to offer evidence. Not that I expect you to; you haven’t shown much inclination to back down when you’re obviously wrong. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/25 "2004-07-09T19:44:37Z")
How about [the words of a veterinarian](http://www.2ndchance.info/aggressivedog.htm)? > [@](#): > > Guard dogs such as Rottweilers, German Shepherds and Akitas were bred to be more aggressive than the hunting and companion breeds. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/26 "2004-07-09T19:44:57Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > [Heritability of Herding-related Traits](http://www.sheepdog.com/genetics/summary.html): From the same article: > [@](#): > > Though it would seem beneficial to determine the exact role genetics play in the inheritance patterns of the individual traits, there have been few rigorous studies to this end. Difficulties involved in such studies include evaluating certain herding traits after the dog has been trained, since training can strongly influence the expression of these traits. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/27 "2004-07-09T19:48:51Z")
[K9agression.com](http://www.k9aggression.com/Aggression-Treatment/prognosis.html): > [@](#): > > The truth of it is, much of aggressive behavior can be genetic, but it is usually augmented through learning. For example protective aggression is genetic in many terriers, German Shepherds, etc., but it is usually the intensity of the drive that is inherited. We can treat the learning side through behavior modification. > > But to understand how genetics play a factor, we must consider what kind of traits may be inherited. For example, theory has it that serious illnesses such as depression are genetic, (inherited). So far the science profession does not know what causes depression, however, there is a common denominator of a shortage a brain chemical (serotonin) which helps control mood. Therefore what may be inherited is the physical make-up that affects behavior, such as brain chemistry, some which can be helped with some medication. ---
**Author:** ![qcomdrj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/a6a055/32.png) [@qcomdrj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qcomdrj)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/28 "2004-07-09T19:52:46Z")
Doggie prozac. Spaniel Xanax. Wonderful. But yes, they exist and do help, just like in unbalanced people. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/29 "2004-07-09T19:55:08Z")
Perhaps both sides are correct. Aggression derived through genetics could be a result of something else. > [@](#): > > [Factors Associated With Aggression [in Chows]](http://www.allbreed.net/chows/Train/factors.htm) > At least 48 genetic diseases have been recognized in the Chow. While most of the conditions, fortunately, are fairly rare, hip dysplasia, hypothyroidism, and entropion are quite common in the breed. Aggression as a result of these conditions (and many others) has been well documented. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/30 "2004-07-09T19:57:14Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > How about [the words of a veterinarian](http://www.2ndchance.info/aggressivedog.htm)? Probably true, but proves nothing; it’s a statement about tradition, not genetics. Let’s play Madlibs: > [@](#): > > People such as \*Jews \* were bred to be more cunning than gentiles. or howbout this: \*I waved my arms real hard and tried to fly. \* My point is, there’s no doubt about the attempted goal; but there’s little conclusive evidence about the results. ---
**Author:** ![qcomdrj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/a6a055/32.png) [@qcomdrj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qcomdrj)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/31 "2004-07-09T19:59:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Another starting point, starting from the same information, is that owners of pits and rottenwilders are more likely to train-or allow–their dogs to be vicious than owners of other breeds. It would be interesting to see the conclusions of any research done on the subject. Ok, if people only train dogs to be vicious, and its not an innate trait that is untrained, then why don’t mean people train St. Bernards, or Great Danes to be vicious. Take a mean Bernie, it could kick any dog’s, and most people’s, ass. Hell, they both are 3% of the fatal attacks, although likely on very small people. Dog fighters use dogs bred to fight. So do cockfighters. Normal chickens aren’t that agressive. Both are trained to be more vicious (or more efficient). Nobody fights goldens. They do fight rotties, pits, and dobermans. They aren’t all trained from nice, cuddly, not a mean bone in their body puppies. They are trained from mean puppies. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/32 "2004-07-09T19:59:46Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > Perhaps both sides are correct. Aggression derived through genetics could be a result of something else. Nah, **lissener’s** totally wrong :). Although some animal behavior is surely due to inherited physical disorders, not all is. The insane pit puppies we had at the shelter displayed no physical discomfort except from the bloody wounds they’d inflicted on one another. A Newfoundland doesn’t step in its first water bowl because it’s got inherited hotfoot. **lissener** is rightfully embarrassed about believing something so silly, but he won’t back down from the silliness and instead insists on increasing it. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/33 "2004-07-09T19:59:56Z")
With regard to the OP, knowing that this vicious dog may be wandering off-leash near your door, I’d carry a weapon every time you leave the house. If it threatens you…kill the fucking thing. I refuse to be held at bay by a vicious animal whose owner thinks it’s macho-cool to have a live weapon terrorizing the neighbors. I wouldn’t think twice about it. Just kill it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/34 "2004-07-09T20:04:25Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > People such as Jews were bred to be more cunning than gentiles. What did I **just** say? Oh, yeah: > [@](#): > > lissener is rightfully embarrassed about believing something so silly, but he won’t back down from the silliness and instead insists on increasing it. Silliness phase complete: moving on to total fucking nutcase stage. Stand by. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/35 "2004-07-09T20:05:03Z")
> [@qcomdrj](#): > > Doggie prozac. Spaniel Xanax. Wonderful. But yes, they exist and do help, just like in unbalanced people. And genetics play a role in people who have psychological problems. Why is it so hard to believe that [the same can be true for animals](http://dvm.adv100.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=5449)? ---
**Author:** ![qcomdrj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/a6a055/32.png) [@qcomdrj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qcomdrj)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/36 "2004-07-09T20:11:06Z")
> [@](#): > > And genetics play a role in people who have psychological problems. Why is it so hard to believe that the same can be true for animals? You do know we are on the same side, right? I do think that animals are bred for character traits, as evidenced by my other posts. Hopefully you were talking to lissener again. My humor is irreverent but I didn’t think that bad. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/37 "2004-07-09T20:16:52Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > With regard to the OP, knowing that this vicious dog may be wandering off-leash near your door, I’d carry a weapon every time you leave the house. If it threatens you…kill the fucking thing. I refuse to be held at bay by a vicious animal whose owner thinks it’s macho-cool to have a live weapon terrorizing the neighbors. I wouldn’t think twice about it. Just kill it. Shit, that’s a scary thought. The only weapon I have is the butcher knife I keep under my bed. I can’t exactly carry it out with me. I really don’t know what I’d do if the dog attacked. I guess I better figure it out. Since I “tattled” on my neighbors and they know it, I’m now worried about the safety of my cats. I usually let them go outside, but I think they’re going to be grounded until I’m sure the dogs are gone. I hope the neighbor doesn’t decide to fuck with me because of this. I’m beginning to regret throwing a shitfit last night. Maybe if I had just waited until today he wouldn’t have known it was me who called. I guess it’s too late to worry about that. This is such a pain in the ass. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/38 "2004-07-09T20:18:51Z")
> [@qcomdrj](#): > > Hopefully you were talking to lissener again. Not specifically, but he does seem to be the only one in this thread who is having trouble with that. 🙂 BTW: I just found [a pro-Pit Bull site](http://www.realpitbull.com/agg.html) and even _they_ say most Pit Bulls are pre-disposed to animal aggression. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/39 "2004-07-09T20:33:03Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > And genetics play a role in people who have psychological problems. Why is it so hard to believe that [the same can be true for animals](http://dvm.adv100.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=5449)? Much more research has been done on the issue you mention than on dog behavior. In any case, you’re talking about individual “aberrations.” Dog behavior is more like saying all black people are aggressive, or all Asians are good at math. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/40 "2004-07-09T20:34:52Z")
What about getting a long, heavy choke chain to carry with you, you could leave it in your car once you are away from the complex, and bring it with you to your apartment when you arrive home? The chain could be used as a flail, or a garrote. You have a right to defend yourself against a large, vicious animal attacking you. Sadly, it’s more often than not due to poor training on the part of the owners that is the pre-cursor to dog attacks. I believe that viciousness is a combination of things, breed/genetic heritage, and how it was raised as a pup, as well as how it’s owner(s) trained it. All of these factor in, and overlap. Good luck, hope you don’t have any trouble. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282.md?page=3)