# Motherfucking idiots in my apartment building **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 9, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282 "2004-07-09T14:26:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/41 "2004-07-09T20:39:22Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Dog behavior is more like saying all black people are aggressive, or all Asians are good at math. Damn, you’ve caught me out. Not only am I practically an SS agent, but I’m also a member of the KKK and the, I dunno, Asian Promotion Society! :dubious: You’re really being very stupid, **lissener**. You know that other thread where you were asking for examples of being an asshole? Not admitting when you’re obviously wrong, instead implying that your opponents are morally equivalent to racists and antisemites, is primo grade assholery. Just FYI. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/42 "2004-07-09T20:42:01Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > Not specifically, but he does seem to be the only one in this thread who is having trouble with that. 🙂 > > BTW: I just found [a pro-Pit Bull site](http://www.realpitbull.com/agg.html) and even _they_ say most Pit Bulls are pre-disposed to animal aggression. Verrry scientific. This just in: even Republicans say on their website that they’re better at fighting wars than wimpy Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/43 "2004-07-09T20:42:13Z")
Oh, and **do not plan to kill these animals casually**. For multiple reasons. First, if you were afraid of retaliation for calling the apartment manager, you oughtta be terrified of what would happen if you hurt their animals. Your own animals, your property, or even your own safety could be needlessly endangered. Second, it would be the dogs who would suffer most, not the owners; you should save the infliction of such suffering for cases where it’s really necessary, not because you want to make a point to the animal owners. Third, if you kill animals in cases where it’s not clearly self-defense, you could be civilly or even criminally liable. I wish this all went without saying, but apparently it doesn’t. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/44 "2004-07-09T20:45:34Z")
Invest in a pocket knife. It’ll do the trick if you stab the motherfucking dog in the throat or something. I have heard of these obnoxious beasts clamping down and hanging on even after death, but I’d rather it was hanging on me dead than alive. My son and I were prisoners in our home when I lived next door to an asshole that had a vicious great dane that outweighed me by a good 40 lbs. It was terrifying. This was in a small mountain town and the sheriff wouldn’t do anything when the people left the dog outside, unleashed, all goddamn day. It was a nightmare. Never again. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/45 "2004-07-09T20:46:40Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Damn, you’ve caught me out. Not only am I practically an SS agent, but I’m also a member of the KKK and the, I dunno, Asian Promotion Society! :dubious: > > You’re really being very stupid, **lissener**. You know that other thread where you were asking for examples of being an asshole? Not admitting when you’re obviously wrong, instead implying that your opponents are morally equivalent to racists and antisemites, is primo grade assholery. Just FYI. > > Daniel Well, I’d planned to call this hijack quits, which I will. But though you’ve certainly proved that popular opinion is against the scientific establishment here, you haven’t “obviously” proven the scientific establishment wrong. You’re arguing from tradition, prejudice, and anecdote. All of which can be _right_, with limited scope, but none of those things prove alternate theories _wrong_, which is the standard of proof in the scientific method. But like I said, I don’t want to keep fanning this hijack, so I’ll bow out of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/46 "2004-07-09T20:51:57Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Well, I’d planned to call this hijack quits, which I will. But though you’ve certainly proved that popular opinion is against the scientific establishment here, you haven’t “obviously” proven the scientific establishment wrong. BULLSHIT! What I’ve proven is that **the scientific establishment** believes that certain canine behavioral traits are inherited. You’ve not shown a single geneticist who denies this. You’re a fool and a liar. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/47 "2004-07-09T20:53:54Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Oh, and **do not plan to kill these animals casually**. For multiple reasons. First, if you were afraid of retaliation for calling the apartment manager, you oughtta be terrified of what would happen if you hurt their animals. Your own animals, your property, or even your own safety could be needlessly endangered. Second, it would be the dogs who would suffer most, not the owners; you should save the infliction of such suffering for cases where it’s really necessary, not because you want to make a point to the animal owners. Third, if you kill animals in cases where it’s not clearly self-defense, you could be civilly or even criminally liable. > > I wish this all went without saying, but apparently it doesn’t. > > Daniel I don’t think Indy would take the “last resort” unless she was truly threatened. I know I wouldn’t. But damnit anyway…there are few things that scare me more than a dog that’s looking at me like I’m wearing Milkbone underwear. I live in the Chicago area, and there have been far too many people killed or maimed because of crazy dogs. I’m an animal lover and I’d never hurt one unless I was under attack. But ya gots to do what you gots to do. ---
**Author:** ![qcomdrj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/a6a055/32.png) [@qcomdrj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qcomdrj)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/48 "2004-07-09T20:55:36Z")
Indygrrl, if the dog comes at you with it’s head down. Kill it. If it is growling. Kill it. It is a vicious animal. If it runs up to you barking. Kill it. All of these would be justified. If you see the owners letting it run around free, call animal control. If you want to inflict pain on it, get a slingshot and some rock salt. With luck, you can inflict a stinging, burning wound. It will learn to a)hate you and b)possibly stay away from you. Or make it really mad. In which case you kill it. Pocket knives are small, and if not lockback, dangerous to untrained people. Get one that locks open. That way it won’t snap shut on you. Stab the dog in the chest/neck. Stick your fingers in its eyes. Make its life a living hell. All of this only applies if the dog attacks. If you see the owners of the dog trying to retaliate, call the police. If they bring the dog anywhere near you, even leashes, implying that they are trying to do anything, call the police. Just don’t put yourself or your cats in danger. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/49 "2004-07-09T20:56:38Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Well, I’d planned to call this hijack quits, which I will. But though you’ve certainly proved that popular opinion is against the scientific establishment here, you haven’t “obviously” proven the scientific establishment wrong. You’re arguing from tradition, prejudice, and anecdote. All of which can be _right_, with limited scope, but none of those things prove alternate theories _wrong_, which is the standard of proof in the scientific method. > > But like I said, I don’t want to keep fanning this hijack, so I’ll bow out of this thread. Sorry, thought I’d included this: Saying Pit Bulls are inherantly vicious is like saying blacks rob gas stations. Even though sometimes this is true, there are several things wrong with this statement. [ol] [li]It unscientifically links behavior to skin color, without examing root causes.[/li][li]It would seem to suggest that black people are inherently larcenous and need to be carefully trained in order to overcome that.[/li][li]It pretty clearly starts with an assumption, a prejudice, and focuses only anecdotal evidence that supports it–you once saw a black guy rob a gas station–without examining any evidence to the contrary in order to eliminate it.[/li][li]Claiming that everyone else feels the same way just puts us back in the Jim Crow South or Baqhdad this morning.[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/50 "2004-07-09T21:00:19Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > BULLSHIT! What I’ve proven is that **the scientific establishment** believes that certain canine behavioral traits are inherited. You’ve not shown a single geneticist who denies this. > > You’re a fool and a liar. > Daniel The scientific consensus is the genetically carried behaviors–sociobiology–is popular but controversial, and not conclusively proven. Most of the research in this area has been done with _Homo sapiens_, disproving any scientific basis for racial stereotypes, e.g. I have not yet seen any conclusive evidence to the contrary, so I’m gonna default to the scientific consensus for now. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/51 "2004-07-09T21:06:55Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > The scientific consensus is the genetically carried behaviors–sociobiology–is popular but controversial, and not conclusively proven. Most of the research in this area has been done with _Homo sapiens_, disproving any scientific basis for racial stereotypes, e.g. I have not yet seen any conclusive evidence to the contrary, so I’m gonna default to the scientific consensus for now. 1. Cite? 2. We’re not talking about sociobiology in humans, who haven’t been exhaustively bred over millennia to achieve certain behavioral characteristics; we’re talking about inherited behavioral characteristics in dogs, a totally different subject. 3. When we look at scientific cites that are **on topic** we discover that over and over, geneticists acknowledge that there are inherited behavioral characteristics in dogs. > [@](#): > > Sorry, thought I’d included this: > > Saying Pit Bulls are inherantly vicious is like saying blacks rob gas stations. Even though sometimes this is true, there are several things wrong with this statement. 1. No problem–you DID already make this obscenely obnoxious metaphor. What the fuck is wrong with you? 2. I didn’t say that Pit Bulls are inherently vicious. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/52 "2004-07-09T21:11:05Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Saying Pit Bulls are inherantly vicious is like saying blacks rob gas stations. That’s an invalid comparison. Dogs are bred toward a specific goal, people are not. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/53 "2004-07-09T21:13:02Z")
In other words, what **Lefty** said. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/54 "2004-07-09T21:14:30Z")
Dog races are not like people races. The difference between a Pomeranian and a pit bull is fairly distinct. To get an idea of the opposite effect, cows exist because people _bred_ them. They’re a relatively new species, genetically engineered – not in a laboratory, but by selective breeding, just like most modern dog species are bred. Dog species like pit bulls and Dobermans have a _strong propensity_ (say it with me) for violent behavior. I’ve met a pit bull with the sweetest personality you can imagine – very friendly, wagged that entire body of muscle at his friends when he saw them. Humans are not ‘bred’ for individual characteristics – they self-select for mates depending on preference, but unless I’m quite mistaken, we tend to choose our own mates for ourselves. I have little doubt that a culture who selectively bred specifically for, say, nonviolence, would have a culture of mostly non-violent people in a dozen generations or so. There’s rather a disturbing scifi book about this, in fact. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/55 "2004-07-09T21:22:40Z")
Er…what Lefty and Jeff said. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/56 "2004-07-09T21:26:01Z")
> [@Little Plastic Ninja](#): > > Er…what Lefty and Jeff said. :smack: No problem–when we all share the same [superstition](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Science), we’re likely to post the same thing ;). Daniel ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/57 "2004-07-09T21:28:26Z")
It’s splitting hairs to distinguish the reasons for isolated “breeding” pools–the continental separation of Africans from Asians; the human-controlled isolation of one breed from another. Root causes aside, the effect is the same. The underlying principle is parallel in both situations: such isolation of breeding pools brings about differences in appearance, but there is no research that has conclusively proven that it brings about differences in behavior. In people OR in dogs. Or cows for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/58 "2004-07-09T21:30:23Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > It’s splitting hairs to distinguish the reasons for isolated “breeding” pools–the continental separation of Africans from Asians; the human-controlled isolation of one breed from another. Root causes aside, the effect is the same. 1. No it’s not. Nature is not teleological. 2. If that’s true, how about giving us just **one goddamned cite** from a geneticist who agrees with you? We’ve shown you many geneticists who disagree with you. 3. Do you **ever** admit when you’re wrong? Is your inability to do so a genetically inherited characteristic? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/59 "2004-07-09T21:32:21Z")
Sheesh, lissener. One cite from a geneticist supporting your notion—not too much to ask, now is it? This is the Straight Dope. We ask for cites here. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282/60 "2004-07-09T21:33:48Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > No problem–when we all share the same [superstition](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Science), we’re likely to post the same thing ;). > > Daniel Dude, come on. I’m the one arguing from science. All your arguments reveal either a profound ignorance of the scientific method, or intentional dismissal of it. All \*evidence \* presented so far has been either anecdotal or “tradition.” I’m eager to see something conclusive. But since sociobiology has been such a hotbutton topic the last few decades, I’d hope that I’d’ve hear if any such breakthrough had been made. I’ll re-start this thread the day such a breakthrough is announced. Until then, I’ll stick with science, not individual, untested observations, no matter HOW many there are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motherfucking-idiots-in-my-apartment-building/254282.md?page=4)