How about
8) lissener is wearing ruby slippers and believes saying “There have been no studies. There have been no studies. There have been no studies.” will magically transport him out of here?
Sorry to hear of your problems. And yeah, the apartment building should be enforcing their own rules.
And yeah, whether I accept the reasoning for the ‘viscious dog’ clause or not - those dog owners you’ve mentioned are idiots. You shouldn’t have to put up with that nonsense in your own bloody apartment.
Here’s where I step in and call bullshit. Actually some Am Staffs are bred for conformation and temperament. Look at ads in Dog Magazines and even in the classifieds and note how often markings are mentioned: red, tiger striped, etc.
And some Goldens are bred for cash. :rolleyes:
There is no monolithic dog-breeding culture where some hive mind operates to ensure that all Pits are vicious, all collies noble, all goldens lovable. It doesn’t happen. You should be aware that there are working-stock bloodlines and show bloodlines. Did you know that? Didn’t think so.
Consider that the contemporary bulldog is really not conformed to fight bulls. It’s bred in such a was as to prevent breathing: Short jawline/face with compacted and complicated sinuses. It’s gonna run out of gas before it gets very far.
The Ridgeback bred in America is bred to look pretty and to chase lures in an AKC-sponsored field trial. It’s classified as a sighthound.
Jesus God, please educate yourself a bit more about dogs before you go blowing smoke. They’re a bit more complicated than you think.
11811
You do realize qcomdrj was mainly referring to the original breeding practices and not contemporary ones, right?
Jeff, on a closer reading (what I should have done in the first place), I sure do. :smack:
qcomdrj, sorry for jumpng down your throat. I really dislike the breedist mentality regarding dogs. I understand the need for caution. I dispute the need for prejudice or panic.
Key here is the phrase “Bred to be”. I have the misfortune to be the sister and daughter of two horse nutty folks. Breeding IS key in what traits animals end up with. Otherwise, why would breeders of champion animals of all types spend so much time and money on the breeding and development process? And have it so frequently come to fruition? (that one’s to lissener, not you).
BUT, it takes the interference of the people breeding them to decide and come up with the traits they want. That 34% of dog attacks result from rotties and pits means one thing. That those particular dogs that perpetrated the attacks were dogs who were BRED, or tampered with, by people. No matter what percentage of a certain type of dog is responsible, the fault is with those that bred and trained them that way, NOT in the “inherent” qualities of the breed, since those qualities weren’t always “inherent” they were sought and enhanced through selective breeding.
Why are rotties, pits and so on chosen for this crap? Well hell, you only have to watch a few episodes of Animal Cops, or have had a half a semester of High School psychology to figure that one out.
They, those types of dogs, just LOOK mean and “bad” to begin with, so the brainless testosterone bags who choose them for their breeding and fighting programs are doing it for the look and style, as well as the known strength of the pits’ jaws and so on. I’m quite sure that a golden could be bred and trained to fight, (though labs strike me as SUPREMELY doofy, so I don’t know it they could actually concentrate long enough to fight), they just look like cuddly overgrown fluffballs, that’s not “cool” looking.
Are you aware that at one point the breed of dog that was responsible for the most dog bites in the US was the Springer Spaniel? IIRC this was shortly post WWII, but the data is there.
IMNSHO there are two things that will cause a specific breed to be seen as an inherent danger: One, as you stated, there are those people who for good or bad reasons want to get the current ‘mean dog of choice’ - this is the process responsible for the popularity of Rottwielers, Dobermans, the Pitbull, and earlier, the German Shepherd; secondly there are breeds that suddenly become popular, and through overbreeding, and poor breeding, become markedly less stable as a population - this is what happened to the Springer Spaniels, and earlier, Golden Retrievers. Over time this can be corrected, but for a period you have breeds that most people would be shocked to hear were demonstrably more dangerous. (The only breed for which this particular catastrophe has been a long term consideration that I’m aware of is the Irish Setter.)
It is this temporary nature of any breed being ‘the most dangerous’ dog that bothers me about any kind of lease clause or legislation that bans based on breed. I have no arguments with people who want to keep dangerous dogs controlled, and can even accept that Staffies have some scary breed traits, but the real problem comes down to owners who don’t properly train or police their animals.
I agree, I actually think that in addition to shots for various disease being required to license your pets, for dogs some sort of basic training program should be required. Or at least demonstration to a vet that they can obey certain commands…We always obedience train any dogs we have.
I had a wolf/shepherd hybrid for about 8 years, and unlike most wolf hybrid sites that recommend keeping it in a pen in the yard, Lugh was obedience trained and lived in the house with mrAru, myself and 3 cats. He shared the yard with a dozen or so chickens, half a dozen turkeys and shared the farm with a small flock of sheep. The only lugh/turkey problem we ever had was that one turkey chick had fixated on him and followed him around, confusing him mightily…it didn’t smell like a puppy…=) We integrated him into the pack and he functioned just fine.
I always thought that if I became eeeeeeeevil I would train toy poodles to savagely attack bipeds, dye them in pastel colors and give them matching little rhinestone collars and barettes on their pouffy little heads and turn them loose in posh neighborhoods to wreke havoc. I have yet to really be introduced to a toy poodle that didn’t make me immediately put it under a pile driver in a construction site. I detest yappy little hyperneurotic dogs. Give me a nice mellow working dog any day.
If only I could code, I’d write a pair of screensaver/time waster programs using those ideas. Cool. 
Yes, I was, but I thought it was the cocker spaniel.
True, those are also factors in the grand scheme of things. I also bristle and “breedist” mentalities. But in my post, I was speaking specifically to answer qcomdrj as to why those fighting the dogs choose certain types. Not necessarily the whole which dog gets overbred etc.
My point was that it was NOT the dogs’ supposedly inherent behaviour, but rather that those types of dogs are “in vogue” for that so to speak. Which is pretty much what you said, I was just speaking to her (qcomdrj’s) one question about it.
Sorry, I guess I put my foot in it again. :smack:
I was just seeing your cite of stats, and started seeing one of my own pet peeves. Not very fair to you, and I apologize for that.
Um, not at all, I just saw your post as a sort of addition to what I was saying, and I thought that your additional comments re: “breedist” and “dog of the month club” mentalities were pretty true ones.
negative persperation
Canvas, I think we are arguing across a gray line here. You say rotties and the like are bred vicious because they look vicious. You are probably correct. I am saying that these two characteristics were probably bred at the same time. Noone bred chihuahuas to be vicious because they, well, couldn’t look mean. I have met mean ones in my time, but what where they going to do, run away with my shoelaces? There happens to be a dog that is naturally mean. It also looks mean. People use it for mean things. They don’t try to train dogs that aren’t mean to be mean because of a) the effort, and b) the look. Just like nobody goes racing in a 75 Pinto. People would laugh at you. You could put a big block in it and raise holy hell at the drag strip, but nobody would respect you.
As for Bonovox’s asserment, well, yeah. I wasn’t saying to go after the dog if it is minding it’s own business. Just if it attacks you whilst outside, having a knife is better than not having anthing. I have used slingshots on many dogs. Granted, none of them were trying to rip my throat out at that moment, but they were terrorizing my mom’s cats. Nobody would be able to sue you if the dog was killed during an attack. Recording it on tape while it kills you would serve to put the owner in jail, but wouldn’t help you out much. Is your suggestion if the dog tries to attack to run away? Because the last time I checked, dogs outran humans. By alot.
Not now, maybe, but Mickey Thompson was famous for his Pinto funny cars. Now if you had said “Yugo”…
Um, no, that’s not really what I was saying. You asked why those who fight the breeds chose those breeds to fight, and consequently to then “engineer” meaner and meaner dogs. Small distinction, but it’s not as simple or black and white as “they are bred vicious because they look vicious”.
Also, your comments earlier on "regular chickens don’t act ‘vicious’ like fighting roosters. Not to each other, perhaps, but fowl are foul creatures, vpeaking from a violence standpoint. Have you ever been on a farm or owned any? The cocks will always treat the up and coming roosters with viciousness, and they WILL fight for the hens in the henyard. Waterfowl seem to be even worse, there was a thread awhile back with a link to some of their heinous activities.
I believe that that is what I already said, although I stongly disagree that these two traits were “bred at the same time” or that the dogs were originally “inherently” mean, and that that is what caused their being chosen for this role. Things other than looks, such as strength, size and as others have mentioned, the pit bull’s jaw strength, are also a factor. I know little about pit bulls, other than what I’ve seen in Animal cops, but I do know quite a bit about rottendogs, my sister and a former boss were both breeders for several years. Rottweilers are members of the working group of the AKC, and they have a long noble history, including herding cattle, that dates back to roman times. They have a repetation among those who actually know the breed as being “gentle bears”. And from those I’ve met, with one single exception (one who was abused as a puppy, and later rescued), they very well fit that title.
I don’t know much about the pit bull, but IIRC, they have a similar history, though not going back that far in history.
As Jeff Olson, Lefty and several others have pointed out, it IS in the breeding of the animals that enhances their natural protective instincts and creates the “fighting dog”. And that, is the trainer’s and/or breeders’ fault, not the dog’s.
So no, it wasn’t that they “took a mean dog, and made it meaner”. They took a dog all of whom have protective instincts (witness someone’s hilarious example of vicious/psycho poodles) purposely engineered certain traits and happened to have concentrated those traits into a certain percentage of certain breeds.
It’s not like those breeds had murderous intent, and they were just there WAITING for the breeders to bring it out. It was purposely, and cruelly engineered for the dog. And then compounded by the training provided by those who fight dogs.
Without the interference of breeders with heinous ambitions, the pit bull would be as those 4 I described earlier, who hid behind mom and dad’s legs while my own miniature psycho attempted to latch onto their jowls. Or like my neighbors doofy rottendog, he of the prodigious slobber and addiction to petting, from anyone, it didn’t matter. His dad called him a snuggle-whore.
THAT is the natural (well, intended anyway, there’s really no such thing as a “natural dog” since before man started breeding them for certain traits) state. The vicious ones are not.
And the above is to not even touch upon the influence that keeping an animal chained up, alone, and baiting it with cats, puppies, and other “prey” animals, not to mention the training to be a fight pit dog will have.
Canvas, I see you here, however.
Not all dogs that go through the chaining, eating kitten, vile stupid maneater regimen come out as fighters. Many fighting dog breeders kill as many dogs as they can fight, because they don’t care to feed dogs that aren’t going to win them money. Usually those dogs are killed by the better fighters in the stable. If it was purely based on the training, then people would train stronger and bigger dogs, not just the ones that look mean. I agree, not many dogs want to kill without having been trained to kill, but many dogs are just plain mean, without having been trained to be mean. Many owners have to train their dogs to not be mean. Poodles in particular have bad attitudes. This is a trait of them.
And yes, fighting dog lines are likely a subspecies of the normal working dog class, but they are still sold to people. Many people in my town seem to think that a pit bull is a sign of something. (stupidity likely). So they put big chain collars on them and the like. These dogs come from fighting lines. They aren’t trained to fight, but they are still mean. Their predecessors were trained to fight at some point.
I’m not saying that there aren’t a myriad of nice, gentle rotties, pits, and dobermans. I just don’t think all of the mean ones are limited to dogs that people fight. The ones that kill people probably are, but the ones that bite people, or are just mean aren’t.
There are people that breed and show pit bulls and use them for working breeds. They just happen to be misrepresented by their aggression by the media (who never misrepresents anything). IMHO, however, the kind of people the OP is talking about, and the kind of dog that is, wasn’t trained to be a fighter, but is still mean. To me, mean dogs are mean dogs, regardless of breed, and are dangerous to be around.
Well, exactly, which was why I referred to it as “engineering” a fighting dog. It obvious that the “flawed” prototypes will be deleted, so to speak.
Um, yes, again, that’s why I referred to BOTH aspects of “engineering” a fighting dog, both the breeding and the training.
Again, I’ve made the above points you reiterate here, and again, this is PEOPLE causing the problem by supporting the sport, and/or the attitude of “bad ass” dogs and so on. NOT that the dogs were originally that way.
Trust me, as the owner of a psycho poodle myself, one who was thrown in the doggie pokey, I am well acquainted with the responsibility the owner of an inherently mean dog has.
]quote]I’m not saying that there aren’t a myriad of nice, gentle rotties, pits, and dobermans. I just don’t think all of the mean ones are limited to dogs that people fight. The ones that kill people probably are, but the ones that bite people, or are just mean aren’t.
[/quote]
Well of course not, anymore than in any other breed, there are mean dogs of all breeds, this is sort of stating the obvious here, and really doesn’t have all that much to do with the 'breedist" mentality. And again, as I stated above, whether the dog is of a breed considered to be “dangerous” by some popular opinions, or just an ill behaved dog, like mine. It’s the OWNER who is responsible, and at fault if something happens.
And really, when it comes right down to it, and to get back to Indy’s main point, her neighbors, whether it’s a potentially dangerous dog, or merely a slobbery one (I’d be pretty annoyed if some dog drooled all over my expensive entry way rug after shoving his head through my screen), or even a too loud stereo, they NEED to follow the apartment rules.
I’m sure you’re trying to be helpful, but are you actually suggesting I “shoo away” a strange pit bull? From what I’ve learned, it’s not a good idea to go up to dogs you don’t know and try to touch them or talk to them. It’s not like we all jumped up and squealed like little girls. We were surprised, but not visibly freaked out.
I don’t give a fuck what his demeanor was. He shouldn’t have been in my yard without a leash and he should have never been given the chance to poke his head through my doorway, friendly or not. It shouldn’t be my problem to deal with.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting the OP just kill this guy’s dog for the hell of it (at least I wasn’t). I 'm talking about being prepared to kill it if it attacks you. There’s nothing macho about it. It’s self-preservation. If a dog attacks you, KILL IT.
FWIW, Rottweilers (thought to have been descended from Mastiff-type Roman drover dogs, the history of the breed is not documented) were originally bred for herding purposes, as well as pulling carts. Rottweiler lore says they were used as butcher’s companions to herd the animals, pull the cart of slaughtered meat to market, then guard the money brought home by fastening the money pouch around their necks. (here’s apretty decent site on their history: http://www.rottclub.ca/rottbegin.html )
Many Rottweilers still exhibit herding behavior, which is why you should always be careful with them around very small children (Any dog with herding instincts can accidentally injure a child when it exhibits herding behavior, due to relative sizes).
My Rottweiler would play with my daughter in the unfenced front yard all the time when we live in rural Indiana, and would often “herd” her back away from the road when she got too close by blocking her further movements and gently stepping forward, nudging her back in the proper direction, taking alot of care to not knock my daughter over. (She weighed 135 pounds, compared to my daughter’s 65).
Cart-pulling has also become a popular sport for dogs to compete in again, and Rotties can excel at this, as their body types are very suitable for it. We trained ours to pull a cart at the age of 3, slowly working her into it (you don’t want to rush cart training too quickly, if you force a dog not used to pulling to pull more weight than she’s been trained for, the dog can injure itself), and she absolutely loved pulling the kids down the street in her cart and harness, trotting happily down the street, tongue lolling out…of course, endurance wasn’t her strong suit, she was a bit of a couch potato (a trait I’ve found alot of them to share chuckles)
Rottweilers have also been found to make wonderful therapy dogs, as they’re not really an excitable or hyperactive breed…they really are gentle giants.
Mind you, I’ve seen my share of vicious Rotts, especially when I lived in white-trash heaven Indiana…but then again, when you take a puppy of ANY breed, tie it to a tree for a couple of years, don’t train or socialize it in any way, and give it no attention, or worse, abusive attention, well…it’s not just Rotties that turn out mean when that happens. It’s just usually alot more serious when something goes wrong, because of the size of the dog.
Breeding for traits is part of the equation, but when you’re talking about behavior, training and socialization are at least as important (and in my opinion, FAR more so, unless you’re just talking about an inherently unstable dog for whatever reason).
I honestly always kind of got a chuckle when people would literally cross the street to not walk past my baby girl when we lived in Wicker Park (Chicago)…I mean, this is a dog who loved children so much she’d literally cry walking past a playground if she wasn’t allowed to go and meet the kids, and played quite frequently at Wiggly Field with any breed…one of her best friends was a Jack Russell Terrier who adored jumping all over her and “worrying” at her ears, while my girl just flopped down and enjoyed the attention.
She also seemed to know how intimidating her size could be…she absolutely adored babies, and would always want a peek in a passing stroller (which I never allowed her to do, without the parent’s permission…I know my dog is a big baby, the parent doesn’t), and when she was given the go-ahead, she’d approach the stroller really slowly, sniff at the babies toes, and then lift her head up to peer at the baby, then sit back and just…grin, for lack of a better word, as if as long as there were babies, everything was all right in her world.
sigh I’ll cut myself off from the rambling now, I didn’t really mean to go into all that there at the end…I just miss my Rottie so much, and we can’t get another in the apt. we’re at…hoping to be able to rent a house next year, so we can get another dog.
Thanks for lettin me ramble, sorry bout the off-topicness of the last part of my post. 