# Motoflux magnet motor, could this work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2023, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447 "2023-02-27T19:05:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/1 "2023-02-27T19:05:34Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/2IR8tkRauXU/maxresdefault.jpg "The Motoflux Principle: How it Works") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IR8tkRauXU) This company has released several videos and articles about this technology but this video has the only explanation of how it actually is supposed to work (video should start right at the explanation). Everything else they’ve said about it is a little shady. They claim that rotating a small magnet inside a permanent magnet armature will make this motor run and produce more power than used to rotate that small magnet. Their proof of concept machine uses a small motor to rotate the small magnet. Clearly the small magnet can’t turn at the same speed of the main motor, it has to punctuate its movement when the armature has lined up in the right position relative to the stator. So if the whole motor produces more power than the small motor then it should be a perpetual motion machine because once the main motor is running it can provide the power to rotate that small magnet. I would think it takes just as much or more power to move that small magnet sufficiently to alter the magnetic field as would be produced by the motion it induces, that’s the reality of magnet motor designs when they aren’t complete scams. Is this different somehow? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/2 "2023-02-27T19:23:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > They claim that rotating a small magnet inside a permanent magnet armature will make this motor run and produce more power than used to rotate that small magnet. “Well there’s your problem!” Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/3 "2023-02-27T19:42:25Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > that’s the reality of magnet motor designs when they aren’t complete scams. Is this different somehow? No, I’m pretty sure this is just a complete scam. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/4 "2023-02-27T19:44:09Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > They claim that rotating a small magnet inside a permanent magnet armature will make this motor run and produce more power than used to rotate that small magnet. Yep, that right there is the kicker. As soon as you see anything like this, the answer is, “No, it doesn’t work.” We’ve been waving magnets around in various fancy ways for quite some time now. If there really was a way to get free energy out of this, it would be pretty well-known by now. They’re relying on the “Magnets, how the fuck do they work?” contingent for finding enough suckers. I’m sure they’ll succeed with this part of their business plan, alas. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/5 "2023-02-27T20:28:09Z")
I’m sure it’s raising money for them. It might not be an intentional scam if the guy really believes he found something new. Did he discover some kind of more efficient permanent magnet motor somehow? It is all suspicious because he talks of producing ‘more torque’ than the input. Torque can be manipulated, and that’s just one the reasons this sounds shady, but did he find a some kind of ‘better’ permanent magnet based motor even if not some kind of perpetual motion device? Is there some kind of advantage to this configuration of a motor based on a small armature magnet moving in the center of a larger permanent magnet? Again, it seems to me it takes just as much power to move that small magnet sufficiently to make the large magnets to rotate to the next stator pole as could be extracted from it. Is there some kind of mechanical advantage available to move a magnet within the center of the armature over switching magnetic fields in the stator like a conventional motor with a permanent magnet armature? I think the answer is likely ‘no’, but just curious if I missed something that makes this absurd right off the bat. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/6 "2023-02-27T20:29:55Z")
Motoflux may or may not be a scam. They may simply be delusional, instead. We know how to build motors that are arbitrarily close to 100% efficient. Anything more than that is bogus. The interesting problems left for motors relate to lowering costs and increasing power density while retaining this efficiency. The demo looks familiar to anyone that’s seen these before. Crucially, what they fail to do is measure the torque of the output part. But power is torque times RPM, so you can’t possibly figure what your efficiency is without measuring that. With no load, you can spin anything up with arbitrarily little power input. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/7 "2023-02-27T20:34:29Z")
There is/was a product that used a slightly different-from-normal method to amplify the effect of magnetic field line flux, but it did not make outlandish claims, and actually did manufacture working motors using what they called “parallel path” or somesuch. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/8 "2023-02-27T20:36:32Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > We know how to build motors that are arbitrarily close to 100% efficient. Anything more than that is bogus. The interesting problems left for motors relate to lowering costs and increasing power density while retaining this efficiency. Thanks, that’s an important point. Yes, possibly delusional, that’s happened before. I’m sure he’s been told it’s impossible, but you can’t easily turn around true-believers. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/9 "2023-02-27T20:37:38Z")
Do you have any more info about that? ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/10 "2023-02-27T20:40:18Z")
On this messageboard we obey the laws of thermodynamics! ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/11 "2023-02-27T20:48:27Z")
[This site](https://www.homemade-circuits.com/making-flynn-motor-circuit-diagram/) describes it pretty well. They do use “over unity” and “\>100% efficiency”, but the basic principle seems sound. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/12 "2023-02-27T21:01:22Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > just curious if I missed something that makes this absurd right off the bat. His design is to extract power from permanent magnets. That isn’t how permanent magnets work. They aren’t a source of power. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/13 "2023-02-27T21:22:46Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > They do use “over unity” and “\>100% efficiency”, but the basic principle seems sound. Does it, though? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/14 "2023-02-27T21:42:06Z")
When they go “over unity”, well, not so much. But I have seen descriptions that do not get all goofy, and it seems kind of like it makes sense. And I could swear I saw a site that was offering actual motors, without outlandish language (just that they were a lot more efficient). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/15 "2023-02-27T21:45:55Z")
Did you look at the video? You’ll see all the necessary information in less than a minute. His design probably does work because it uses another motor to change magnetic fields. The mechanical motion comes from reluctance. There are reluctance motors. They don’t work like this one, but the principal is sound. It’s the same thing that makes solenoid activators work. In this case the question is whether this motor can provide power more efficiently than any other electrical motor that requires consumption of power to have changing magnetic fields. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/16 "2023-02-27T21:47:46Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > When they go “over unity”, well, not so much. But I have seen descriptions that do not get all goofy, and it seems kind of like it makes sense. You are the ideal customer for the [Rockwell Automation Retro Encabulator](https://youtu.be/RXJKdh1KZ0w). Stranger ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/17 "2023-02-27T21:51:03Z")
Except, I have no use for, whatever the fuck that thing is supposed to be. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/18 "2023-02-27T21:53:13Z")
There are so many ways to build an electric motor, as well as devices such as “magnetic transmissions,” that you can pretty much come across them by accident. But if you’re using terms like “over unity,” it’s virtually certain that you don’t even know how to _measure_ efficiency. Magnetic reluctance motors exist. You can even build one without really understanding the principles. But you aren’t going to get a _good_ one from someone talking about over unity. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/19 "2023-02-27T21:53:43Z")
Gotta look at that for a while. Once again there’s an assumption that a small amount of input can alter magnetic fields to produce a large output. I don’t see that being explained there. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447/20 "2023-02-27T21:57:22Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Once again there’s an assumption that a small amount of input can alter magnetic fields to produce a large output. There’s nothing wrong with that, per-se, depending on what’s meant by “output.” A lever can convert a small force into a large force; a suitable arrangement of magnets can do the same. But you’ll never get more energy out than you put in. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motoflux-magnet-motor-could-this-work/980447.md?page=2)