# Motorcycle endorsement brain teaser **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 29, 2020, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193 "2020-01-29T22:35:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/1 "2020-01-29T22:35:18Z")
First person that can answer wins! Well, that person wins bragging rights. No prize given. If your answer works and it’s not the answer I thought of, you still win. This is a question I thought up after reading about something in particular. Of course, I can’t tell you what that is without giving a hint to what the answer is, so I won’t. The question is regarding a hypothetical person living in NJ with a NJ driver’s license. I picked NJ because that’s where I live, but I’m confident this person can live in most other US states and the scenario will work just as well. It doesn’t have the most exciting answer in the world, but I find it interesting and motorcyclists especially might also find it interesting. There is a man living in NJ. He has driven/ridden only one vehicle in his life- the 2018 Nissan Altima he drove when he took the road test for his driver’s license in 2018. He has never driven/ridden any other car, motorcycle (including 3 wheeled motorcycles), moped, etc. This isn’t a trick question regarding what “other” type of vehicle he may have driven/ridden. That Altima was the one and only. He never drove/rode another vehicle, including that Altima, after the day of that road test. In 2019 he had a non-restricted motorcycle endorsement added to his NJ driver’s license, and he received it without breaking any laws and without the NJ Motor Vehicle Commission or any other entity or person breaking any laws or making any mistakes. How was that accomplished? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/2 "2020-01-29T23:29:26Z")
Has he successfully completed a motorcycle safety education course? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/3 "2020-01-29T23:34:59Z")
^ That’s not the answer I was thinking of. You’d have to post more specific details so I can see if that would work. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/4 "2020-01-29T23:36:01Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Has he successfully completed a motorcycle safety education course? I don’t think that works. Our guy can’t complete that course, gaining an endorsement, without riding a motorcycle and passing the final skills test. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/5 "2020-01-29T23:47:08Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > I don’t think that works. Our guy can’t complete that course, gaining an endorsement, without riding a motorcycle and passing the final skills test. Well, there’s [this](https://drivinglaws.aaa.com/tag/motorcycle-licenses/): [spoiler] NEW JERSEY A person who successfully completes a road test for a motorcycle license or a motorcycle endorsement when operating a motorcycle or motorized scooter with an engine displacement of less than 231 cubic centimeters shall be issued a motorcycle license or endorsement restricting the person’s operation of such vehicles to any motorcycle with an engine displacement of 500 cubic centimeters or less. A person who successfully completes a road test for a motorcycle license or motorcycle endorsement when operating a motorcycle with an engine displacement of 231 or more cubic centimeters, or successfully completes an approved motorcycle safety education course, shall be issued a motorcycle license or endorsement without any restriction as to engine displacement. **The director of the MVC may waive the road test portion of the examinations required for a motorcycle license or endorsement if the applicant has successfully completed a motorcycle safety education course.** [/spoiler] Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/6 "2020-01-30T00:14:14Z")
^ I’m going to skip the spoiler box because I don’t believe you’re on the right track. AFAIK, the motorcycle safety education course mentioned in your link must be given by the Motorcycle Safety Foundation (MSF). From their website (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > The best place to start once you’ve made the decision to ride. Covers the basics of operating a motorcycle and safety-oriented mental strategies. Motorcycles and helmets are provided for your use. Successful completion of this course (consisting of a three-hour eCourse, five hours of formal classroom activities, and **ten hours of riding instruction** conducted over two or three sessions, plus its knowledge and **skill tests** ) may waive the license test in your state. The course may also earn you an insurance discount. > **[360 Motorcycle Rider Training - Motorcycle Safety Foundation](https://msf-usa.org/360-motorcycle-rider-training/)** > > 360 Motorcycle Rider Training Motorcycle rider training helps you learn and improve your riding skills MSF 360 Rider is a collection of hands-on motorcycle riding courses for riders of any and all skill levels. MSF courses are divided into three... More info [here](https://www.state.nj.us/mvc/vehicletopics/motorcycle.htm) (first clickable link (the word “Register”) under “**1. Enroll in the Basic Rider Course (BRC)**”: If there’s a safety education course that doesn’t include mandatory cycle time which NJ will accept as a waiver exempting one from taking a road test with the Motor Vehicle Commission, you have to cite it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/7 "2020-01-30T00:20:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, there’s [this](https://drivinglaws.aaa.com/tag/motorcycle-licenses/): > > **The director of the MVC may waive the road test portion of the examinations required for a motorcycle license or endorsement if the applicant has successfully completed a motorcycle safety education course.** > > Bolding mine. edit: removing spoiler tag thanks to getting comprehensively ninja’d by **x-ray vision**. Sure, but to my knowledge, there is no way to complete the NJ (or any state) motorcycle safety course without taking the riding skills test at the end. The waiver mentioned is just to remove the duplicative effort of then taking another riding skills test at the DMV. ---
**Author:** ![somepumpkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@somepumpkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somepumpkin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/8 "2020-01-30T00:22:14Z")
You sure it was an endorsement? Some states allow the permit, with a time limit to learn the machine. Then the applicant will come back to DMV for their road test. Gives a time window where an un-endorsed person is still legal. I don’t think he had an endorsement, only a learners permit. I’m often wrong about things, too. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/9 "2020-01-30T00:22:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Sure, but to my knowledge, there is no way to complete the NJ (or any state) motorcycle safety course without taking the riding skills test at the end. The waiver mentioned is just to remove the duplicative effort of then taking another riding skills test at the DMV. Ah, gotcha. Good point; I’ll drop it. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/10 "2020-01-30T00:34:06Z")
Hmm, one way i can see around either the road test or the Basic Rider skills sessions on a bike would be if there were a foreign country that allowed conversion of a US MC permit (which you can get with a written test only) into a local full license (perhaps said country doesn’t have a permit system?). Then, after a year (you did mention the time gap was from 2018 to 2019), the person comes back to US and there are procedures to convert a foreign license to a full endorsement. A casual Google search didn’t turn a country that that up, though, and an IDL (International Driver’s License) does require a full endorsement from the person’s native country (where they hold their original license) for the motorcycling endorsement to carry over. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/11 "2020-01-30T00:48:12Z")
I’m sure it was an endorsement. The hypothetical person has never been outside of the US. ---
**Author:** ![Spud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spud/32/347_2.png) [@Spud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spud)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/12 "2020-01-30T00:58:33Z")
Read through Indiana’s laws and the only way without passing a riding skills requirement (which would require riding a motorcycle) is if you have a valid endorsement from another state. I don’t plan to go through every state to see if there is a state that lets you get the license without ever riding but that would be the only way here. The other way… since this is NJ. He slipped the person at the DMV a hundred or so and/or has a relative in a high spot in the organization. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/13 "2020-01-30T01:55:03Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > First person that can answer wins! Well, that person wins bragging rights. No prize given. If your answer works and it’s not the answer I thought of, you still win. > > This is a question I thought up after reading about something in particular. Of course, I can’t tell you what that is without giving a hint to what the answer is, so I won’t. The question is regarding a hypothetical person living in NJ with a NJ driver’s license. I picked NJ because that’s where I live, but I’m confident this person can live in most other US states and the scenario will work just as well. It doesn’t have the most exciting answer in the world, but I find it interesting and motorcyclists especially might also find it interesting. > > There is a man living in NJ. He has driven/ridden only one vehicle in his life- the 2018 Nissan Altima he drove when he took the road test for his driver’s license in 2018. He has never driven/ridden any other car, motorcycle (including 3 wheeled motorcycles), moped, etc. This isn’t a trick question regarding what “other” type of vehicle he may have driven/ridden. That Altima was the one and only. He never drove/rode another vehicle, including that Altima, after the day of that road test. > > In 2019 he had a non-restricted motorcycle endorsement added to his NJ driver’s license, and he received it without breaking any laws and without the NJ Motor Vehicle Commission or any other entity or person breaking any laws or making any mistakes. How was that accomplished? I can’t think of any way anyone can get a motorcycle license (or MC endorsement on a driver’s license) without ever having ridden a motorcycle. There is no course (of which I’m aware) offered in any state that gets you a license without actual time on the bike. I’ve got a question, though – is it possible to get a motorcycle license (in the US, any state) without having a driver’s license first? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/14 "2020-01-30T02:04:20Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I’ve got a question, though – is it possible to get a motorcycle license (in the US, any state) without having a driver’s license first? Yes, in my state (NJ) it’s the only way to get a motorcycle “license” and not an M endorsement. ---
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/15 "2020-01-30T02:27:42Z")
I can imagine that some jurisdictions would grant some public servants (police officers maybe? or military personnel?) additional driving certifications “for free” as part of their job, for some technical / legal reason. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/16 "2020-01-30T02:30:19Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Yes, in my state (NJ) it’s the only way to get a motorcycle “license” and not an M endorsement. Well technically, it’d be a “driver’s license” with the M endorsement only and no D endorsement. When I got my MC learner’s permit it was a separate document that looked just like my driver’s license with the D endorsement, but it said PERMIT on it with an M; when I passed the road test, I turned it in along with my regular driver’s license and they gave me back a license with the DM endorsement. If I had no D class license already, I would simply have been given back a full license with the M endorsement but no D. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/17 "2020-01-30T02:37:10Z")
BTW as far as crazy loopholes go, what you’re describing is surely dangerously crazy, but what I got in real life was not a whole lot better - I passed the motorcycle road test on a 150cc “twist and go” scooter, a Vespa GT4 with 10" wheels and a CVT. Which would require a full MC license to ride in NY, and so qualified for use in taking the road test. Doing figure 8s on one of those things is silly easy. And so I got a full M endorsement that legally would allow me to buy a Harley Fat Boy at a dealership and (attempt to) ride it home. About 2 months after that, I signed up for the MSF Basic Rider course to learn to ride a “standard” motorcycle for that reason. I was unsurprisingly the only person in the class who already had an M endorsement, haha. And in fact, one of the minority of people who’d never operated a clutch before… About half the class were guys with MC permits who’d been riding motorcycles for years - some even riding to the course - but got ticketed for riding “out of class” on a permit, so were doing this class to avoid the hassle of the road test. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/18 "2020-01-30T02:38:21Z")
BTW as far as crazy loopholes go, what you’re describing is surely dangerously crazy, but what I got in real life was not a whole lot better - I passed the motorcycle road test on a 150cc “twist and go” scooter, a Vespa GT4 with 10" wheels and a CVT. Which would require a full MC license to ride in NY, and so qualified for use in taking the road test. Doing figure 8s on one of those things is silly easy. And so I got a full M endorsement that legally would allow me to buy a Harley Fat Boy at a dealership and (attempt to) ride it home. About 2 months after that, I signed up for the MSF Basic Rider course to learn to ride a “standard” motorcycle for that reason. I was unsurprisingly the only person in the class who already had an M endorsement, haha. And in fact, one of the minority of people who’d never operated a clutch before… About half the class were guys with MC permits who’d been riding motorcycles for years - some even riding to the course - but got ticketed for riding “out of class” on a permit, so were doing this class to avoid the hassle of the road test. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/19 "2020-01-30T02:49:25Z")
> [@Heracles](#): > > I can imagine that some jurisdictions would grant some public servants (police officers maybe? or military personnel?) additional driving certifications “for free” as part of their job, for some technical / legal reason. I have a buddy who’s a cop and who was certified to ride a motorcycle to be in motorcades, etc. But getting that certification by the NYPD involved actually learning to ride the motorcycle, go figure. Essentially they had an all-cop internal MSF Basic Rider Course program as training (they didn’t have to pay for it themselves), but the M endorsements they earned by passing went on their personal licenses (of course). ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193/20 "2020-01-30T02:57:08Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > Well technically, it’d be a “driver’s license” with the M endorsement only and no D endorsement. > > When I got my MC learner’s permit it was a separate document that looked just like my driver’s license with the D endorsement, but it said PERMIT on it with an M; when I passed the road test, I turned it in along with my regular driver’s license and they gave me back a license with the DM endorsement. > > If I had no D class license already, I would simply have been given back a full license with the M endorsement but no D. Was that in NY? Every cite I checked states that there is no M endorsement when getting a license to ride a motorcycle without a driver’s license in NJ and it is called a “motorcycle license” in that case. > [@](#): > > **Endorsement** > There are two ways to add a motorcycle endorsement to your driver’s license: > > 1. Enroll in the Basic Rider Course (required for persons under age 18); or > 2. Apply without completing a Basic Rider Course. > > … > > **License** > There are two ways to obtain a motorcycle license without possessing a driver’s license: > > 1. Enroll in the Basic Rider Course (required for persons under age 18); or > 2. Apply without completing a Basic Rider Course. > **[NJ MVC | Motorcycle](https://www.nj.gov/mvc/vehicletopics/motorcycle.htm)** > > The official website of the New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission. > [@](#): > > Every New Jersey resident who operates a motorcycle or trike must have a New Jersey motorcycle driver license or a motorcycle endorsement on an existing New Jersey basic or commercial license. > **[mcm996.pdf](https://www.nj.gov/mvc/pdf/license/mcm996.pdf)** > > 928.21 KB > [@](#): > > In the state of New Jersey, you can get a motorcycle only license if you don’t already have a driver’s license, or a separate motorcycle endorsement on your existing driver’s license. > **[Motorcycle License NJ - How To Get It?](https://www.permit.bike/motorcycle-license-nj/)** > > How to obtain a Motorcycle License NJ. What are the requirements, cost, restriction, type of licenses and where to apply for it. > [@](#): > > You can either apply for a motorcycle license if you don’t have a standard motor vehicle license, or you can apply to have a motorcycle endorsement added to the current NJ driver’s license. > **[How To Get Your Motorcycle License In New Jersey](https://runthacity.com/how-to-get-your-motorcycle-license-in-new-jersey/)** > > Before you can head out on the highway, looking for adventure, you need a license or endorsement. Let’s check out the process, so you can get riding sooner. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/motorcycle-endorsement-brain-teaser/847193.md?page=2)