# Move the Earth! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 1, 2001, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172 "2001-06-01T04:20:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![galen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecc23a/32.png) [@galen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2001, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/1 "2001-06-01T04:20:18Z")
Scientists figure that life on earth can only exist for about another billion years due to increased solar flux. Someone has proposed that it may be possible to move the earth to an orbit further from the sun by using an asteroid which first passes Earth and then Jupiter. It was calculated that enough orbital energy could be transferred between the two planets so that such menouvers (sp) need be carried out only about once every six thousand years or so to maintain a constant flux. So I got to thinking. We know that the solar wind and sunlight exert a force. Why, then, is there not a constant force pushing the earth away from the sun like lighter elements were supposedly blown out to the outer solar system in the period following the creation of the sun? Why doesn’t that affect the earths orbit? ---
**Author:** ![BigGiantHead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b4bc9f/32.png) [@BigGiantHead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigGiantHead)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2001, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/2 "2001-06-01T05:29:50Z")
Mmmmkay, at our distance from the Sun the solar wind force equals something like 3 pounds per square mile, IIRC. There’s a muuuuch, much bigger force holding us close to the Sun. They call it _gravity_. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2001, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/3 "2001-06-01T05:34:54Z")
“Orbital Energy” is only transferred along with mass. It’s not like transferring power between two batteries. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2001, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/4 "2001-06-01T05:47:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*“Orbital Energy” is only transferred along with mass. It’s not like transferring power between two batteries. \*\* That’s not strictly true. Two bodies can exchange orbital energy through a close fly-by. It’s used all the time for launching interplanetary probes - first the probe swings by, say, Venus, stealing some orbital energy from Venus. As for the solar wind and photon pressure, the effects are small on large bodies. Photon pressure is proportional to cross-sectional area of an object, while mass and gravitational force are proportional to the volume. If you double the radius, you increase photon pressure by a factor of 4 and mass by a factor of 8. ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2001, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/5 "2001-06-01T13:13:28Z")
Plus, isn’t much of the solar wind channeled to the Earth’s poles due to the magnetosphere? (can we say “aurora”?) ---
**Author:** ![Montfort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Montfort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montfort)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2001, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/6 "2001-06-01T13:34:34Z")
Enh, wouldn’t life on Earth be **drastically** different if the Earth was more (or less, for that matter) than 93,000,000 miles from the Sun? Moving the Earth out, however implausible, would make the planet a helluvalot colder. “Ice age coming” – Thom Yorke ---
**Author:** ![saepiroth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@saepiroth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saepiroth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2001, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/7 "2001-06-01T17:00:04Z")
actually, what they are trying to do is maintain the earth’s temperature when Sol goes into it’s red giant phase. in our current orbit, the earth would be well inside the predicted diameter of the sun when it goes red giant, and bee pretty much melted. what this plan is set up to do is to move the earth out of that region and to put it in the new equatorial region, which would be closer to the sun than currently due to the ‘colder’ radiation- that is why we only have to scoot back once every 6,000 years to stay in this equatorial region. a problem would be that our new orbit would be in such a position as to be gravitationally disrupted by mars, so we will probably have to bitchslap mars off past the asteroid belt to keep it from screwing with us. hopefully, by the time Sol supernovas we will have moved out of this solar system. if not, then we are just fucked. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2001, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/8 "2001-06-01T17:10:19Z")
Interesting idea. But it’s silly to talk about what our descendents might want to do millions of years from now, when the advance of science and technology is making our concepts of the future completely obsolete every 50 years. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2001, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/9 "2001-06-01T21:42:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Scientists figure that life on earth can only exist for about another billion years due to increased solar flux. What scientists are saying this? Most data seems to show that the luminosity of a star stays constant over its main sequence life, and old Sol still has four or five billion years left on the main sequence. Once it does leave the main sequence, we’ll have bigger problems than just a gradually-increasing flux. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Scene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Bob\_Scene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Scene)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2001, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/10 "2001-06-02T03:57:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by galen \* > **Scientists figure that life on earth can only exist for about another billion years due to increased solar flux.** Oh, shit! I thought we still had **four** billion left! There goes my vacation! > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by saepiroth_ > **hopefully, by the time Sol supernovas we will have moved out of this solar system.** Stars like the Sun don’t go supernova. The worst we can expect is that it will swell up so big that we’ll be right in the middle of it. Personally, I can’t wait to see if that makes George Bush believe in global warming. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2001, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/11 "2001-06-02T05:11:00Z")
Okay, I gotta know, where the bloody hell did _ **this** _ \*\* > [@](#): > > quote: > > did dinosaurs masturbate? And if so, are there huge deposits of dino jism lying about, waiting discovery?\*\* come from? That’s the funniest thing I’ve seen all day (and, yes, it **has** been a particularly shitty day for me) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2001, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/12 "2001-06-02T05:36:12Z")
Continuing the hijack: Based on what the Master said on the topic ([How did dinosaurs have sex?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/001006.html)), it’s doubtful that dinosaurs could masturbate: > [@](#): > > The preceding quote answers the question, were dinosaurs hung like . . . like . . . well, we mammals lack an adequate point of comparison. Anyway, they weren’t. Fact is, we aren’t certain the dinosaur had a penis at all, and if he did it was probably concealed. Dinosaur copulation was most likely accomplished by means of “kissing cloacae.” The cloaca is the all-purpose body cavity that reptiles and birds use for copulation, urination, and defecation. You can see where this might reduce the romantic potential right off the bat. (Then again, maybe not.) One brings the cloacae of the partners into apposition; the penis or hemipenis, if any, extrudes from the male and is inserted into the female; and the generative material is translocated. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2001, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/13 "2001-06-02T15:43:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Scientists figure that life on earth can only exist for about another billion years due to increased solar flux. > > What scientists are saying this? Most data seems to show that the luminosity of a star stays constant over its main sequence life, and old Sol still has four or five billion years left on the main sequence. Once it does leave the main sequence, we’ll have bigger problems than just a gradually-increasing flux. \*\* This [article](http://www.usatoday.com/life/science/environ/lse026.htm) from USA Today reports that “the sun gradually is getting brighter and hotter.” The article also indicates that life on Earth in its present orbit will only be possible for the next 500 million years. This [site](http://burro.astr.cwru.edu/Academics/Astr221/SolarSys/CompPlanet/goldilocks.html) states that “the sun has been increasing in luminosity over time. Early in the Earth’s history (several billion years ago), the Sun had only 70% of its current luminosity.” This detailed [site](http://icg.harvard.edu/~scia36/lectures/001114_lect/) states that “While on the MS the Sun gradually has been increasing its luminosity–by about 40 percent since birth…” (I have heard this numerous times recently, but these are the only fast cites I came across.) ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2001, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/14 "2001-06-02T16:53:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by saepiroth \* > \*\*actually, what they are trying to do is maintain the earth’s temperature when Sol goes into it’s red giant phase. > > in our current orbit, the earth would be well inside the predicted diameter of the sun when it goes red giant, and bee pretty much melted. what this plan is set up to do is to move the earth out of that region and to put it in the new equatorial region, which would be closer to the sun than currently due to the ‘colder’ radiation- that is why we only have to scoot back once every 6,000 years to stay in this equatorial region. \*\* Umm, not exactly… This all arose from a paper in the journal _Astrophysics and Space Science_ by Don Korycansky of UC-Santa Cruz. The paper may be found (in PDF format) [here](http://www.ucolick.org/~kory/). _USA Today_ wrote an article about the paper: The idea was to gradually move the Earth to a larger orbit in an effort to “save the Earth’s atmosphere from the heat of the sun, which is predicted to grow 11% over the next 1.1 billion years.” (quoted from the _USA Today_ article) This may be accomplished by using a 100-km diameter asteroid that slingshots around the Earth, Sun, and Jupiter, gradually increasing the orbital radius of the Earth from 93 million miles to 140 million miles. Each round trip **of the asteroid** (emphasis added) is expected to take 6000 years. The whole operation is expected to take millions of years. ---
**Author:** ![saepiroth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@saepiroth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saepiroth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2001, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/15 "2001-06-02T21:24:19Z")
as to my sig, i got it over [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=71077). and i am sorry about my various mistakes in my earlier post. i scraped the idea from a fungus-encrusted wall in an ancient corner of my vaults of knowledge, and only collected part of it before i had to run from the ancient demonic temple guards defending that region. A.K.A. i thought the idea was a little silly and promptly forgot about it. and i couldn’t remember if Sol would just shuffle off it’s mortal coils (and outer layers of gas) calmly or if it would go supernova, and i picked the wrong choice. that reminds me- {off topic and probably wrong **HIJACK** alert} would the offslough of gas from Sol’s endstage destroy the earth? or would it just be an exceptionally strong solar wind(followed by a slow freezing death as we orbited a red dwarf)? {/ **HIJACK** alert} ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bad\_Astronomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@The\_Bad\_Astronomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bad_Astronomer)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2001, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/move-the-earth/67172/16 "2001-06-03T01:36:00Z")
Yes, the Sun is getting hotter. The diameter (according to the models) should slightly decrease with time, and the Sun will heat up. I am not sure how much hotter it will get. Over time, the helium in the Sun’s core builds up, like an ash. It will not fuse unless temperature and pressure are very large. But it gets compressed, and _very_ hot. Eventually, the hydrogen in the core runs out, and the core begins to collapse under its own gravity. The temperature goes way up, and hydrogen will fuse in a shell surrounding the core. This dumps a vast amount of heat into the outer layers, which expand to compensate. The total energy goes up, but the surface area goes up even more. The energy per square centimeter emitted will drop, so the Sun becomes red, a red giant. However, by that point the Sun will have been blowing a solar wind for several billion years. It will have lost mass, and mass defines gravity. As the gravity weakens, the Earth’s orbital radius increases. Some models show that by the time the Sun becomes a red giant, the Earth will actually be too far to be directly consumed. However, with an object at a surface temperature of 2500-3000 Kelvin filling half our sky, we’ll have other problems. Check out [http://www.astronomynotes.com](http://www.astronomynotes.com) for a brief description of this, or one of my own bitesize astronomy pages at [http://www.badastronomy.com/bitesize/sn87a\_explosion.html](http://www.badastronomy.com/bitesize/sn87a_explosion.html)