# MoveOn, Hitler and Bush: Hooo, boy! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 6, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071 "2004-01-06T20:05:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/41 "2004-01-07T03:18:46Z")
So, Demmies, make up your hive mind: Is it okay to compare politicians to Hitler, or not? ---
**Author:** ![cheddarsnax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cheddarsnax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheddarsnax)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/42 "2004-01-07T03:29:30Z")
[HIVE] X\> CONDEMN BUSH INPUT ENEMY INTELLIGENCE [HIVE] X\> BUSH = HITLER ERROR: LINE 666 { BUSH != HITLER } DATA MISMATCH CANNOT PROCESS FATAL SYSTEM ERROR :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/43 "2004-01-07T03:33:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I see. Are you defending the Hitler characterization Of course not. It’s stupid, hysterical mudslinging that insults the memory of the millions murdered by the Nazis and seriously weakens the arguments made by the parties employing this cheap tactic. Hitler was an evil, genocidal maniac; Bush is just a corrupt boob. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot are all way off in describing Bush. Now, Warren G. Harding, an amiable, stupid politician who was blind to the grasping avarice of his administration (see [Teapot Dome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_G._Harding)) or Woodrow Wilson, whose [attorney general](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Raids) violated the Constitution in search of suspected subversives, would be much more apt comparisons. ---
**Author:** ![carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/44 "2004-01-07T03:39:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*I see. Are you defending the Hitler characterization? \*\* Good question, **Scylla**. I have another question, **gobear** : Why do you hate America? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/45 "2004-01-07T03:40:56Z")
Mhendo: > [@](#): > > What do you need a cite for? Go to the link that i gave in my earlier post, and you’ll see the fifteen finalists, none of which is either of the Hitler ads in question. Those ads did not receive enough votes to make the final cut, so they get squat, exactly as elucidator said. In a contest where there is only one prize, for the first-placed contestant, everyone else gets “squat” by definition. You did know that the actual “prize” for this contest is getting your ad nationally recognized, don’t you? Which as is in the news right now, the winning ad, or the two Hitler ads? Which do you think has the more recognition? These ads have gotten more than the winners. That’s not “squat,” but thanks for bringing it up. And since you ask, I asked the question because I was curious. Do you have an answer? > [@](#): > > You apparently hate it so much that you can’t even bring yourself to call the RNC hypocrites for criticizing MoveOn, yet ignoring Republicans who compare Democrats to Hitler. Not at all. I simply hadn’t heard of Norquist’s interview or the Post’s editorial. If and when I hear or see them for myself, I will say bad things about them if they are as has been represented, if I see a thread on those topics and feel like participating. Meanwhile, I will not be swayed by the “look he did something bad” tactic. This thread is specifically about Moveon and the RNC’s response. That reasonable to you? > [@](#): > > Sure, the ads were silly and should have been weeded out, but i guess the regret expressed by the people at MoveOn for this oversight means nothing to you. I find apologies pretty meaningless when they come with accusations of maliciousness and hostility. Does “I’m sorry. Fuck you!” sound like a meaningful apology to you? > [@](#): > > I hoped you were intelligent enough to be able to distinguish between mudslinging and political criticism. Political criticism like… the… Hitler ad which was apparently reviewed for appropriateness and then published on Moveon’s web site? > [@](#): > > pointing out the flaws in a candidate’s policies and political actions, and the consequences of those things, is a perfectly valid political strategy, at least in a democracy. But Republicans haven’t had much use for that lately. I think it’s a good thing that we don’t have Hitler ads on the RNC website. > [@](#): > > Also, you make the standard Republican assumption that criticism of Clinton’s sexual peccadilloes is the same as criticism of Bush’s foreign and domestic policy. When it devolves to the level of ad hominem, I see no difference. > [@](#): > > Jesus, you’re a bit fucking thick today, aren’t you? They sponsored the CONTEST, dimwit, not each and every contestant. They provided no assistance or funding for the production of any of the ads, and nor did they exercise any control over what each person submitted Nonsense. They sponsored the contest and provided the bandwith and the forum and they vetted the ad. To deny a connection between the organization and the content of it’s website is thick and dimwitted. I’m recognizing a couple of basic facts. 1. Their contest. 2. Their bandwith. 3. Their website. 4. They reviewed the contents prior to publication. And yet you would have me beleive they have no responsibility or connection or culpability to what is said. I think you should look at your own thick dimwittedness in this before you cast the aspersion on another. > [@](#): > > But this, in turn, does not absolve the RNC of its blatant and deliberate misrepresentation of the circumstances under which the ads appeared and who was responsible for their content. As i noted in a previous post, the RNC didn’t even have the integrity to mention that the ads were part of a contest, and their content was not produced by MoveOn. Because it’s a bullshit excuse and attempt to weasel out. If you come into my house with a sniper rifle and tell me you intend to shoot at school children and I help you do it, I am jointly responsible for your actions. Move on **solicited** these ads. Offered a prize and reviewed them prior to publication. Trying to distance themselves now is like climbing naked off of somebody’s wife in a bed at 3 o’clock in mid flagrante delicto and claiming a “regrettable accident.” “Yes sir, I slipped on a banana peel, then my clothes fell off and then I landed naked on your wife.” > [@](#): > > By your logic, when a Coca Cola ad appears on NBC, it must have been “sponsored and supported” by NBC, because NBC is providing the means of distribution, videotape space, etc. Coca Cola, despite having funded the making of the ad and acted as the producer of its content, is not in fact the sponsor. Again, you ridiculously conflate sponsoring the ads themselves with sponsoring the contest of which they are a part. That’s a great example. You see NBC **is** responsible for the content that is aired on their network. The fact that it’s produced by a third party has no bearing on this. Much network content **is** produced and owned by third parties. By choosing to put it on the air, NBC accepts legal responsibility for the content. > [@](#): > > Again, MoveOn erred in allowing these ads on their website, a mistake which they have admitted, and for which they have expressed regret. This does not excuse the RNC’c attempt to paint MoveOn as the creator of the ads’ content I think this is an untruth. Please show me a specific quote by the RNC or their spokesperson(s) showing this. > [@](#): > > You make it sound as if good Democratic policies might actually sway you from your knee-jerk conservatism. Don’t make me laugh I agree. The idea that we’ll see any this election is pretty ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/46 "2004-01-07T03:51:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Of course not. It’s stupid, hysterical mudslinging that insults the memory of the millions murdered by the Nazis and seriously weakens the arguments made by the parties employing this cheap tactic. Hitler was an evil, genocidal maniac; Bush is just a corrupt boob. > > Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot are all way off in describing Bush. Now, Warren G. Harding, an amiable, stupid politician who was blind to the grasping avarice of his administration (see [Teapot Dome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_G._Harding)) or Woodrow Wilson, whose [attorney general](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Raids) violated the Constitution in search of suspected subversives, would be much more apt comparisons. \*\* Ok cool. I can respect your different perspective. It seems to me, beleiving what you do, you should be pretty clearly in support of Bush and in denouncement of all those associated with the ad in question as well as those stupid enough to allow it to be published on Moveon’s website, as far as this **one and only one particular issue goes** ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/47 "2004-01-07T04:07:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > **Trying to distance themselves now is like climbing naked off of somebody’s wife in a bed at 3 o’clock in mid flagrante delicto and claiming a “regrettable accident.” "Yes sir, I slipped on a banana peel, then my clothes fell off and then I landed naked on your wife."** Jeebus **Scylla** , how many times to I have to apologize for that before you stop bringing it up? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/48 "2004-01-07T04:09:20Z")
Couple a minor points here. First off, the RNC has posted on of the ads for our perusal. Pretty stupid, IMO. Gotta say, all of this would have been a lot weirder if that _had_ been one of the finalists. The other one, as referenced in above and in _Buzzflash_ seem pretty innocuous. It just goes into that Goebbels quote about scaring folks out of thier rights, but not much more than that. No visuals offered, so they may be a mosaic of Bush’s face made entirely of swastikas, but so far, pretty harmless shit. So we got one, count 'em one! out of the 1,500 submissions that stinks the place up. Bigga fukka deal! So you gotta wonder, don’t you, how it is that the RNC managed to find itself in such high dudgeon. Or would that be Drudgeon? Since the stinker in question was destined for oblivion, how, exactly did anyone hear about it who was not intentionally seeking something to be outraged about! The RNC finds itself in the interesting position of bitching about something on a website it clearly _knows_ is partisan, and screaming for abject apologys from everybody. Like they don’t know what to expect? Hokily Dokily, fairs fair. I don’t know the way to Freepers pages, but I’ll Family Jewel Alpha some of you do. Whaddaya wanna bet we can find something there at least as scurrillous as the aforementioned stinker? Well aren’t they sponsoring it? Aren’t they supporting it? Aren’t bleating cries of self-abnegaton demanded? In the interests of fairness, and all? Second point - how interesting that they got so many entries! I got two bits says they were not suspecting that they would have so many to screen! I think if I were them, I might expect a couple of hundred, tops. Or even for it to thud to the ground, dead as a doornail. But no. 1,500 entries in a contest for ads against GW. And some of them in my estimation, are pretty spiffy. Cogent, precise, and, most importantly perhaps, utterly devoid of hysteria, and well armed with honed wit. Do avail yourself, if you’ve a mind to (Not you, friend **Scylla** , your health is rather delicate of late…my reputation is bad enough without sending someone to the cardiac ward…) Oh, yeah, almost forgot. The people who did these 1,500 entries? Did them for free, didn’t they? Hmmmmm. Interesting. PS: if you’re checking them out, they take a long time to download. But with some players you can start it playing almost as soon as it starts to load, and that saves time. Several of them are well worth the looking (and a couple look like those TV ads where the owner of the car lot wants to be on TV…) ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/49 "2004-01-07T04:12:39Z")
> [@](#): > > I have another question, gobear: Why do you hate America? Yep, I deserve that (I know you’re kidding, but I really have it coming.) I was rabidly pro-war because I had the assurance that the military knew there was a real threat to our nation from Saddam. Turns out they were lied to, so their info was, well, wrong. I still believe that toppling a vicious dictator was the right thing to do, but not lying about the reasons we went to war, or the callous indifference paid to the welfare of the people we were supposedly “liberating.” I supported the war because I believed that the Bush administration had a well-thought-out plan to install a just goverment in Iraq and an organized exit strategy for our military. Turns out they didn’t. What’s the benefit to the Iraqi people if we exchange tyranny for anarchy? I tried to give Bush the benefit of the doubt, but he’s a cheap, lying sonofabitch who needs to get kicked out of office. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/50 "2004-01-07T04:14:22Z")
Gobear: Just for fun: > [@](#): > > - He deliberately used fradulent evidence to start the war in Iraq I’m afraid you’re right. > [@](#): > > \*He has abandoned the search for Bin Laden, who caused 9/11 I believe this is obviously false. > [@](#): > > \*His attorney general is still holding innocent people in jail for questioning in connection with 9/11, despite having zero evidence against them and has seriously weakened civil liberties for all Americans. I don’t know about this enough to comment. > [@](#): > > \*His irresponsible tax cuts have created a gigantic budget deficit and is crippling government services on both federal and state levels These tax cuts were instituted in response to a crippling collapse in the economy that occured during an irresponsible speculative bubble in an overheated economy that occured under the previous President. Not that I’m blaming the previous President, I’m not. But, you can hardly blame Bush for the economic collapse. These tax cuts have pulled the economy out of recession into the fastest growth in 20 years, restored the NASDAQ to a two year high, and saved us from economic disaster. > [@](#): > > \*His adminstration continues to chip away at environmental protections. That’s what they say. Too general to discuss. I happen to agree that environmentalism is not a Bush strong point, though. > [@](#): > > \*His adminstration’s laissez-faire attitude toward corporate sleaze encouraged Enron and other companies to defraud their investors and their employees with impunity Sorry, Bud. Enron happened on Clinton’s watch, as did Tyco and El Paso and the whole Dot com defraud the investor’s thing. The dirty laundry just didn’t show up until Bush was in office and Clinton was gone. It’s not really Clinton’s fault either, but if you want to blame the person under whose watch it occured you can’t blame Bush. > [@](#): > > \*His administration has seriously damaged our relations with the rest of the world. Too general to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/51 "2004-01-07T04:23:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **Yep, I deserve that** All that and more! > [@](#): > > **(I know you’re kidding, but I really have it coming.)** Indeed I am, and possibly you do. > [@](#): > > **I still believe that toppling a vicious dictator was the right thing to do,** You will find no argument here. > [@](#): > > \*\*but not lying about the reasons we went to war, or the callous indifference paid to the welfare of the people we were supposedly “liberating.” I supported the war because I believed that the Bush administration had a well-thought-out plan to install a just goverment in Iraq and an organized exit strategy for our military. Turns out they didn’t. What’s the benefit to the Iraqi people if we exchange tyranny for anarchy? \*\* I could have written that paragraph, were I able to write so eloquently, so we find ourselves in agreement. However, we seem to be getting off the subject a bit, don’t we? > [@](#): > > \*\*I tried to give Bush the benefit of the doubt, but he’s a cheap, lying sonofabitch who needs to get kicked out of office. \*\* Ah, back on topic. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/52 "2004-01-07T04:24:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Ok cool. I can respect your different perspective. It seems to me, beleiving what you do, you should be pretty clearly in support of Bush and in denouncement of all those associated with the ad in question as well as those stupid enough to allow it to be published on Moveon’s website, as far as this one and only one particular issue goes **Scylla** , you fail to acknowledge that A)Move-On did not produce or sponsor the Hitler ads. All they did was post it on their web site, **which they apologized for**. But we are agreed that GOP-Nazi comparisons are way inappropriate, [sub]unless Ashcroft begins tossing Arab-Americans into boxcars and shipping them off to death camps, of course[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/53 "2004-01-07T04:28:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\ ***Scylla** , you fail to acknowledge that A)Move-On did not produce or sponsor the Hitler ads. All they did was post it on their web site, **which they apologized for**. \*\* I agree they did not produce it, but they clearly sponsored it, I mean they had the contest, vetted the ad and supplied the bandwith and storage and forum for it for free. I call that “sponsoring.” As for the apology. Well, you can’t call somebody vicious malicious and hostile and then apology for comparisons of them to Hitler in the same breath and really mean it, in my book. > [@](#): > > \*\*But we are agreed that GOP-Nazi comparisons are way inappropriate, [sub]unless Ashcroft begins tossing Arab-Americans into boxcars and shipping them off to death camps, of course[/sub] \*\* Well, that’s something. ---
**Author:** ![eli\_the\_fanatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ccd318/32.png) [@eli\_the\_fanatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eli_the_fanatic)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/54 "2004-01-07T04:33:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Age Quod Agis \*I can’t help but notice that neither **cheddarsnax** not **Homebrew** have denounced the ad from the OP. Nor have you denounced **eli\_the\_fanatic** ’s comparison of Bush and Hitler. How is pointing out differences between Hitler and Bush a “comparison”? I don’t think Bush is Hitler. Sigh. Sorry I have to provide a gloss on such cryptic irony. But being unlike Hitler doesn’t qualify a person to be president. I’m sorry if the best thing you can say about your man is that he’s not Hitler. – Off the point, but: I often wonder if two men at a Berlin coffee shop in 1929 or so are talking politics, and one of them says, “you know this place is turning into Nazi Germany!” And the other one says, “come on, don’t exaggerate!” ---
**Author:** ![eli\_the\_fanatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ccd318/32.png) [@eli\_the\_fanatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eli_the_fanatic)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/55 "2004-01-07T04:39:44Z")
I can imagine some fucking intern was paid to root around on moveon and find the most objectionable ad of 1500. I guarantee someone was ASSIGNED to that task. “Chip, we need you to stay late and watch every one of these ads on the MoveOn site so we can spin it.” “Yes, Senator!” Premidated outrage. Non-issue. Considering the shit that was available on the Web, Bush gets off easy. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/56 "2004-01-07T04:47:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > **You did know that the actual “prize” for this contest is getting your ad nationally recognized, don’t you?** Yes. And which of the Hitler ads is currently in line for such a prize, or was in line for such a prize when the RNC’s statement was posted yesterday? That’s right, neither. > [@](#): > > \*\*Which as is in the news right now, the winning ad, or the two Hitler ads? Which do you think has the more recognition? > > These ads have gotten more than the winners. That’s not “squat,” but thanks for bringing it up.\*\* Well, if you’re talking about right now, who is responsible for the Hitler ads being in the news right now? Those ads no longer even appear on the MoveOn website. If these ads have wider publicity right now, it’s thanks to the RNC. And referring to the other ads as the winners is incorrect. They are the finalists, there will only be one winner, and if that winner makes it onto primetime national television, you can be sure it will have greater exposure than the two Hitler ads. > [@](#): > > **And since you ask, I asked the question because I was curious. Do you have an answer?** An answer to what? You asked **elucidator** if he had a cite for his claim that the two ads didn’t make the cut, and thus “got what they deserved: squat.” I would think that the absence of these ads in the final fifteen is reasonable evidence of this. > [@](#): > > \*\*Not at all. I simply hadn’t heard of Norquist’s interview or the Post’s editorial. If and when I hear or see them for myself, I will say bad things about them if they are as has been represented, if I see a thread on those topics and feel like participating. > > Meanwhile, I will not be swayed by the “look he did something bad” tactic. This thread is specifically about Moveon and the RNC’s response.\*\* Exactly. And a key aspect of the RNC’s response is the hypocrisy attendant upon the fact that it fails to condemn such behaviour when it comes from conservatives. > [@](#): > > **I find apologies pretty meaningless when they come with accusations of maliciousness and hostility. Does “I’m sorry. Fuck you!” sound like a meaningful apology to you?** You still can’t comprehend, can you, that MoveOn’s error in placing the ads on its website, and the RNC’s misrepresentation of the circumstances surrounding the ads are two separate issues? MoveOn apologized for the poor judgement, but an admission of guilt on this issue by MoveOn does not absolve the RNC of responsibility for its disingenuousness. > [@](#): > > **Political criticism like… the… Hitler ad which was apparently reviewed for appropriateness and then published on Moveon’s web site?** You find it very convenient to continually shift the focus from the competition as a whole to those two ads, don’t you. It should have been obvious to even the most dimwitted that my comment about political strategy was being applied to the competition in its entirety. In fact, my own comment was made in response to one by you, in which you say: “The purpose of this contest is mudslinging against Bush.” You referred to the contest as a whole, and i responded in kind. It’s disingenuous of you to now imply that my reference to political strategy was only to the Hitler ads. Been taking lessons from the RNC, have you? > [@](#): > > **I think it’s a good thing that we don’t have Hitler ads on the RNC website.** Nice non-sequitur. > [@](#): > > **When it devolves to the level of ad hominem, I see no difference.** That’s right, i forgot. Any questioning of Bush’s policies, no matter how strongly bolstered by evidence, is, by definition, an _ad hominem_ attack your eyes. > [@](#): > > \*\*Nonsense. They sponsored the contest and provided the bandwith and the forum and they vetted the ad. To deny a connection between the organization and the content of it’s website is thick and dimwitted. I’m recognizing a couple of basic facts. > > 1. Their contest. > 2. Their bandwith. > 3. Their website. > 4. They reviewed the contents prior to publication. > > And yet you would have me beleive they have no responsibility or connection or culpability to what is said. I think you should look at your own thick dimwittedness in this before you cast the aspersion on another.\*\* Show where i, or MoveOn for that matter, denied a connection, or responsibility for the ads being on the site. What i was referrring to, and what MoveOn was concerned about, was the disingenuousness of the RNC is failing to point out that MoveOn did not, in fact, make any financial contribution to the production of the ads, nor did they have control over the content. They did have control over which ads to show on theuir website, and they admitted to making an error in exercising this control. > [@](#): > > **Because it’s a bullshit excuse and attempt to weasel out. If you come into my house with a sniper rifle and tell me you intend to shoot at school children and I help you do it, I am jointly responsible for your actions.** Weasel out of what? You keep implying that MoveOn denies any connection at all to the ad, or any responsibility for its appearance on the website, when MoveOn has explicitly accepted the association. This does not excuse the RNC’s misrepresentation of the situation. > [@](#): > > \*\*Move on **solicited** these ads. Offered a prize and reviewed them prior to publication. > > Trying to distance themselves now is like climbing naked off of somebody’s wife in a bed at 3 o’clock in mid flagrante delicto and claiming a “regrettable accident.” “Yes sir, I slipped on a banana peel, then my clothes fell off and then I landed naked on your wife.”\*\* You’re the master of the inappropriate analogy, aren’t you? Your stupid example has the culprit trying to claim that the situation resulted from circumstances beyond his control, whereas MoveOn admitted openly that the circumstances were under its control, and that it fucked up. MoveOn acknowledged an inadequate screening process, explicitly accepting responsibility for doing something they should not have done. > [@](#): > > \*\*That’s a great example. You see NBC **is** responsible for the content that is aired on their network. The fact that it’s produced by a third party has no bearing on this. Much network content **is** produced and owned by third parties. > > By choosing to put it on the air, NBC accepts legal responsibility for the content.\*\* Yes, they are rsponsible for airing the content and for checking it beforehand. By doing this, they accept responsibilty for the content. But accepting responsibility for it after the fact is not the same thing as claiming responsibility for creating it. That’s why, when you see infomercials on air, the stations say that “The following does not necessarily represented the views of NBC.” The station accepts responsibility for the content of the ad, but distances itself from the production. Furthermore, who really thinks that the appearance of an ad on NBC constitutes actual endorsement of the product by NBC? I saw an ad for Chevy, and one for Ford, on the same station tonight. Does that mean that the station endorses both products, and supports the claims made for them? > [@](#): > > **I think this is an untruth. Please show me a specific quote by the RNC or their spokesperson(s) showing this.** It’s a lie of ommission. As i said before: > [@](#): > > The RNC statement about the ads, which can be found here, is a masterpiece of obfuscation. Firstly, nowhere does it mention that the ads appearing on MoveOn’s site were just two among well over a thousand, that not a single one of all those ads was produced by the organization itself, and that they were entries in a contest that was open to the general public. In fact, the word “contest” is not even mentioned in the RNC piece, leading anyone reading it to assume that MoveOn was the creator of any ad that appeared on its website. > > Further, saying that the ads in question “are anything but appropriate for television,” as the RNC does, implies strongly that MoveOn as an organization was not only thinking about broadcasting the ads on TV, but had actually decided to do so. The RNC also accuses MoveOn of “deeming them [the ads] appropriate for television.” This is just a flat out lie; i’m not sure whether Bush’s behaviour is rubbing off on the RNC, or vice versa. Also, what the RNC must have known–because it’s been public knowledge since the time of their press release–is that the final fifteen ads up for consideration in the MoveOn competition have been selected, and neither of the ads in question were among the finalists. If you believe that [the RNC’s statement](http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/Releases/Jan04/MoveOn2.htm) constitute a good faith account of the whole situation, that’s your prerogative. I don’t share your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![cheddarsnax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cheddarsnax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheddarsnax)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/57 "2004-01-07T04:48:17Z")
[ADL does the right thing](http://www.adl.org/media_watch/newspapers/20040106-NYPost.htm) (re: Herr Howie) [Simon Wiesenthal Center accepts regrets from MoveOn](http://www.wiesenthal.com/social/press/pr_item.cfm?ItemId=8726) ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/58 "2004-01-07T05:16:33Z")
The RNC is far more at fault here than MoveOn. Anyone who can’t admit that the RNC account of the situation is a despicable piece of knowing spin is warped beyond my comprehension. Is it so hard to realize that there is a market for manufacturing outrage by abusing the truth, and that both parties are heavy players in this market? It doesn’t seem so hard to realize when the Democratzis are doing it (in fact, that’s where the Bush-as-Hitler hyperbole comes from), why do people continue to be taken in when the RNC does it? Politicians? Spinning? No… ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/59 "2004-01-07T05:20:13Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by mhendo \* > \*\* > I suppose if you’re trying to make some sort of point about whether these ads were voted into 16th place or 1000th place, then maybe overall ranking might be of interest, but even in that case it would tell you nothing about the MoveOn organizers, only about the people who voted for the ads._\* Just as a point of mild interest, I voted on about 250 of the ads, including the “Sound familiar?” one. I distinctly recall that it had a very low average mark, something around 1.6, where most of the high quality productions were getting 2.9-3.9 average. This whole bruhaha is manipulative, deceptive bullshit on the part of the RNC. In case anyone wasn’t sure. Nice to see they are so scared of little 'ol [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org), tho. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/60 "2004-01-07T05:22:29Z")
> [@](#): > > ## \*Originally posted by Scylla \* quote: > > ## \*He has abandoned the search for Bin Laden, who caused 9/11 > > I believe this is obviously false. What was it, 40 square miles? And how many people do we have in those 40 square miles? And when was the last time we told our purported allies in Pakistan that they can suck our dicks, because we’re going in to obliterate the motherfucker and anybody who gets in our way? But then again, maybe Saddam will tell us where he is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071.md?page=4)