# MoveOn, Hitler and Bush: Hooo, boy! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 6, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071 "2004-01-06T20:05:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![cheddarsnax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cheddarsnax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheddarsnax)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/81 "2004-01-07T21:08:33Z")
Drudge is running [this](http://www.drudgereport.com/flag.jpg) picture along with unlinked headline **NEW VIDEO UNCOVERED: [MOVEON.ORG](http://MOVEON.ORG) FINALIST IS PRODUCER OF ANOTHER BUSH/HITLER AD** ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/82 "2004-01-07T21:30:57Z")
I want to make another, general comment about the whole issue of the ads appearing on MoveOn’s website. I think that MoveOn played this whole thing badly. They attempted to screen the submitted ads for legality and for taste, and fucked up, letting a couple of poor taste/bad judgement ads through the net. What they should have done was vetted _only_ for legality. They could have given notice to all entrants that _all_ submissions would be posted on the site, as long as they contravened no laws (obscenity, copyright violation, libel, etc., etc.). Furthermore, they should then have announced that the posting of the ads was to allow MoveOn members to vote for their favourites, and did not in any way constitute an endorsement of the ads’ contents by the people who run MoveOn. We’ve already seen that the ads in question were voted down by the membership (including me), and i think that MoveOn should have shown more faith in its members’ good judgement, and allowed any and every ad to run, as long as it broke no laws. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/83 "2004-01-07T21:38:25Z")
A bit odd. The stuff that Drudge cites credits Take Back the Media, Blah [3.com](http://3.com), and Symbolman. I don’t see any of these credits on the _finalist_ list at [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org). But, ya know, “bring it on”! The more people who go to MoveOn to chuckle over/view with aghast horror, the better! Let them roll about on the floor shrieking in porcine rage, let them tear their hair and set thier shoes on fire! When people like that call you names, its like having Jesus throw roses at you! ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/84 "2004-01-07T22:08:35Z")
Put down the soda, kids. The following is the best thing I’ve ever written. Ready? _[Two films out of 1500 hardly in my judgment makes a conspiracy](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/09/12/politics/main232514.shtml)_. HAHAHAHAHAHA! I win this thread! Subliminable. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/85 "2004-01-07T22:09:51Z")
Aw… sheeeit. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/86 "2004-01-07T22:30:52Z")
Mehndo, Mehndo, Mehndo: Thank you for the link to the RNC’s statement. Seeing as it provides a direct link to Moveon’s submission guidelines for the contest, it seems unfair? no? How about a Total Prevarication for you to claim that they are lying by ommission about it being a contest. After all, they provide the link ya meatball. What more do you want. Secondly, you’ve gone on and on and on about Moveon not “sponsoring” this ad, and you’ve taken all kinds of issue over that. Yet, according to your own link What does it say at the very bottom of the ad in question? What is the last Chyron statement that shows up? Hmmmmmmm? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/87 "2004-01-07T22:35:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*What was it, 40 square miles? And how many people do we have in those 40 square miles? And when was the last time we told our purported allies in Pakistan that they can suck our dicks, because we’re going in to obliterate the motherfucker and anybody who gets in our way? > > But then again, maybe Saddam will tell us where he is. \*\* What is your position, Oh sleazy weasel? Is it your stated position that Bush has in fact “abandoned” the search for OBL? ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/88 "2004-01-07T23:02:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*What is your position, Oh sleazy weasel? Is it your stated position that Bush has in fact “abandoned” the search for OBL? \*\* No, Bush [already did that](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/25/attack/main560293.shtml) back in 2001. [You know what they say](http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2003/09/69455.php): _Fool me once, shame on… m–… you. If you fool me, you can’t get fooled again._ ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/89 "2004-01-07T23:04:59Z")
Subliminable. There, I feel better now. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/90 "2004-01-07T23:40:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > **Mehndo, Mehndo, Mehndo** When i’m in an ongoing debate with someone, i usually try to do them the courtesy of at least getting their name right, especially if i’m going to use it repeatedly in place of intelligent argument. > [@](#): > > **Thank you for the link to the RNC’s statement. Seeing as it provides a direct link to Moveon’s submission guidelines for the contest, it seems unfair? no? How about a Total Prevarication for you to claim that they are lying by ommission about it being a contest. After all, they provide the link ya meatball. What more do you want.** So, a link to MoveOn’s site excuses the disingenuous content of the RNC site? I’m sure that in your narrow mind it does. I notice that you still haven’t taken the time or effort to actually examine and defend the words used by the RNC, or to explain why they represent a good faith description of the events. > [@](#): > > \*\*Secondly, you’ve gone on and on and on about Moveon not “sponsoring” this ad, and you’ve taken all kinds of issue over that. > > Yet, according to your own link What does it say at the very bottom of the ad in question? > > What is the last Chyron statement that shows up? > > Hmmmmmmm? \*\* You really have no idea, do you? The statement “Sponsored by [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org)” was put into the ads by many contestants, because this line WILL in fact be required by the WINNING ad, in order for it to appear on television. When, in fact, the winning ad is chosen, and is aired on national television, it _will_ be sponored by MoveOn, which is the organization that will pay for the airtime. The fact that many contestants put this tagline into their individual submissions in anticipation of maybe winning the contest does not indicate that MoveOn sponsored each and every entry, or any individual entry at all. In fact, MoveOn’s own eligibility [rules](http://www.bushin30seconds.org/rules.html) for the contest have the same exclusions that most such contests have, which are specifically designed to distance the organization itself from the entries. > [@](#): > > Employees, independent contractors, officers, and directors of Sponsor, its affiliates, subsidiaries, advertising, promotion and fulfillment agencies, and legal advisors, and the immediate family members and persons living in the same household of such persons, are not eligible to participate in the Contest. And, before you try another disingenuous obfuscation, the term “Sponsor” in the above paragraph refers to MoveOn as the sponsor of the contest, not of each and every submission. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/91 "2004-01-08T00:27:55Z")
> [@](#): > > _mhendo:_ > However, i think it’s actually an irrational and anti-intellectual position to argue, as people often do, that Hitler and the Holocaust should never be used as referents in any scheme of comparison or any search for historical parallels. Human history contains some pretty awful people and episodes, and while Hitler and the Holocaust are right up there among the worst, i don’t believe that they should be put in an intellectual box marked “Never to be opened.” Fair enough. Heaven knows that the right used the Hitler and Nazi Germany comparisons enough when talking about why we needed to invade Iraq. It’s possible that I made that comparison at some point (although I’m not sure). But (in my opinion) the reason that it’s offensive to compare Bush’s foreign policy or Dean’s internet presence with Hitler and/or the Nazis is that the comparison diminishes the torture and slaughter of millions of people that actually were victims of the Nazi regime. It implies that the problems encountered by people living in today’s America are in any way similar to the plight of the European Jews in the 1940s. And anybody that thinks that is a moron and an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/92 "2004-01-08T00:29:48Z")
> [@](#): > > _RedFury:_ > Not an American, thus no party affiliation. OTOH, I have no reason to doubt my ‘rationality’ and from my vantage point, I can think of no such “list” of good things about Bush. > > _mhendo:_ > Sorry, you’re wrong about that. Has politics really gone this far? Have people actually de-humanized their opposition to such an extent that they can’t come up with 3 good things about a guy that sits on the other side of the aisle? Fine. Here are a 10 things off the top of my head that reasonable liberals might find good about Bush: 1. prescription drugs for the elderly; 2. vocal support for Ted Kennedy’s education bill, which increased the federal budget for education; 3. signed McCain-Feingold (campaign finance reform); 4. pushed for amnesty for illegal aliens; 5. announced that he supported limiting guns to 10-rounds per clip; 6. did not roll back Clinton’s “Don’t ask, don’t tell” policy on homosexuals in the military; 7. allowed the use of stem-cells for research, despite strong conservative opposition; 8. new temporary work program for immigrant workers; 9. he speaks spanish; 10. he recognizes that Raul is a silly hack (kidding, **RedFury** , just kidding). All of those (except for the Raul bit) are straight off the liberal agenda. And yet none of you think he has **any** redeeming qualities? Are you that distracted by the “R” next to his name on the ballot? ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/93 "2004-01-08T00:31:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _mhendo:_ > Have you been taking lessons from Scylla? MoveOn has explicitly apologized for the appearance of these ads on its website, and has made clear that it has no time for comparisons of Bush and Hitler. You’ve totally missed my point. I don’t think MoveOn did anything particularly wrong here. They got busted when a Bush=Hitler ad slipped through the cracks. They’re certainly responsible for that, but they responded appropriately. I harbor no ill will, and in fact, I think they’re worthy of credit for taking responsible action. My point is that **eli** (and apparently you) have gotten so absorbed in your political affiliations and rhetoric that you’ve lost all perspective. If you honestly think Bush is comparable to Hitler, or that there aren’t 3 good things about Bush, then you’re either an idiot (which I strongly doubt) or you need to be exposed to some differing viewpoints. So I suggested **eli** get off MoveOn – where everyone tends to agree that Bush has 666 tattooed somewhere on his body – and get exposed to some different viewpoints. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/94 "2004-01-08T00:37:20Z")
> [@](#): > > _eli\_the\_fanatic:_ > Age Quod Agis, you share one quality with Bush: a steadfast refusal to appreciate any kind of irony Irony implies an unexpected result. A post in which you ignore logic, common sense, and good taste to bash Bush is anything but unexpected. OK, you meant humor. Fine. I admit that I wasn’t amused by your statement that Bush is worse than Hitler, which may or may not imply that I lack a sense of irony/humor. But what makes you think that Bush doesn’t have any sense of irony and/or humor? Or is that just based on your assumption that Bush is the epitome of everything bad? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/95 "2004-01-08T00:37:47Z")
Anybody willing to come in here and go _mano a mano_ with friend **Scylla** as he defends his Beloved Leader is getting enough exposure to a “different viewpoint” to last a week. And its not a tatoo. Its a birthmark. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/96 "2004-01-08T01:04:47Z")
Blehndo: > [@](#): > > So, a link to MoveOn’s site excuses the disingenuous content of the RNC site? What disingenuous content? Identify the sentence(s) that are disingenuous. > [@](#): > > I notice that you still haven’t taken the time or effort to actually examine and defend the words used by the RNC, or to explain why they represent a good faith description of the events. Sure I have. You said “they lie by ommision” because they didn’t use the word “contest.” I point out that they link directly to both the contest and the rules and wonder what more you want? Then you say this: > [@](#): > > Further, saying that the ads in question “are anything but appropriate for television,” as the RNC does, implies strongly that MoveOn as an organization was not only thinking about broadcasting the ads on TV, but had actually decided to do so. The RNC also accuses MoveOn of “deeming them [the ads] appropriate for television.” This is just a flat out lie; i’m not sure whether Bush’s behaviour is rubbing off on the RNC, or vice versa. I thought this too dunderheaded to take seriously, but let me try to explain it to you. Moveon says in their rules “we’re not going to post anything that would be inappropriate for television.” They posted the ad. Therefore, by their own definitions… on their own website… and… by their own rules… of their own contest, they did not deem this ad innapropriate for broadcast at the time they posted it. What the fuck is your objection? > [@](#): > > You really have no idea, do you? > > The statement “Sponsored by [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org)” was put into the ads by many contestants, because this line WILL in fact be required by the WINNING ad, in order for it to appear on television. When, in fact, the winning ad is chosen, and is aired on national television, it will be sponored by MoveOn, which is the organization that will pay for the airtime. Listen, you moron. There was an ad on [Moveon.com](http://Moveon.com) comparing George Bush to Hitler. [Moveon.com](http://Moveon.com) placed it on their own website after reviewing it. It was solicited as part of a contest with a prize. Moveon provided the incentive, the rules, the bandwith, the forum, and the storage space for the ad. This ad had been reviewed by a Moveon official before it was posted to make sure that "it was appropriate for television and that it “complied with legal limits.” At the end of this ad, on Moveon’s website it says “sponsored by [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org)” Now, in the four years that I’ve been posting on this board, I’ve seen some people take some really stupid positions. To claim within this context and these facts that saying this ad was sponsored by [moveon.org](http://moveon.org) is somehow _disingenuous_ is a viewpoint so vacuous that you have earned the abhorrence of Nature herself! Let me explain it to you another way. If **you** post on **your own** website an ad, and at the end of the ad it says “Sponsored by Mhendo…” and somebody is under the impression that you, Mhendo, sponsored the ad IT"S YOUR FUCKING FAULT!!! Jesus fucking Christ on a popsicle stick, ya fucking meatball. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/97 "2004-01-08T01:38:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > Is it your stated position that Bush has in fact “abandoned” the search for OBL? In large part, yes. Perhaps “forsaken” might be a slightly better descriptor. “Unforgivably ignored” would be even better. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/98 "2004-01-08T01:44:03Z")
Minty: And do you base this on anything other than Bush not having invaded Pakistan? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/99 "2004-01-08T02:19:07Z")
> [@](#): > > …To claim within this context and these facts that saying this ad was sponsored by [moveon.org](http://moveon.org) is somehow disingenuous is a viewpoint so vacuous that you have earned the abhorrence of Nature herself!.. But of course it is! Lets suppose that some waggish sort had produced a pro-Bush ad to slip into the mix. Clearly, such would not go far, given the environment of the contest. But if said ad was viewed and rated by the partipants of this contest, as the Dreaded Two were, and left behind in the detritus, would you now be here claiming the [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) had “sponsored” an ad urging GeeDubya’s re-installment? I think not. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/100 "2004-01-08T02:36:59Z")
I base it on the insignificant numbers of troops committed to the Afghan campaign, the refusal to put them in harm’s way in lieu of depending on the unreliable Afghan warlords. I base it on the the abject failure to commit troops when we had the bastard cornered in Tora Bora. I base it on the inexplicable respect our troops have been ordered to pay to the border of Pakistan, when the enemy lives among and is protected by any number of inhabitants and officials on the other side of that border. I base it on the president’s decision to divert American military might to a damn fool war against a nation that posed no threat whatsoever to the United States, though it was falsely claimed to be in bed with the enemy. And yes, I base it on the refusal of the president to tell our purported allies in Pakistan that they can suck our dicks, because we’re going in to obliterate the motherfucker and anybody who gets in our way. Spin away, Master Weasel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071.md?page=6)