# MoveOn, Hitler and Bush: Hooo, boy! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 6, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071 "2004-01-06T20:05:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/141 "2004-01-09T01:02:41Z")
Hi Elucidator: It’s not really much of a surprise that you’d deprecate the cites. It kind of fits in with my theme of you’re just asking for them for irritation value. But you’re also one of those people who thinks a solicited ad posted on [moveon.com](http://moveon.com) by [moveon.com](http://moveon.com) officials with the disclaimer that it is sponsored by [moveon.com](http://moveon.com)… …is nonetheless **not** sponsored by [movon.com](http://movon.com). Further, you assert, anyone who would assume otherwise is clearly being disingenuous. So, in that context I’m not surprised find my cites unsatisfactory. In fact, it follows logically that you would seeing as they contain exactly what you asked for. > [@](#): > > Vanity Fair magazine asks if Richard Perle and Joseph Goebbels were “separated at birth.” > [@](#): > > Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., said of the Contract With America: “Hitler wasn’t even talking about doing these things.” His colleague, And Rep. Major Owens declared of the new Republican leadership in the House, “These are people who are practicing genocide with a smile; they’re worse than Hitler.” > [@](#): > > US Senator Robert Byrd, on the floor of Congress, on October 17, has explicitly compared the Bush media operation to that run by Herman Goering, mastermind of the Nazi putsch against the German people. > [@](#): > > Scholars at Berkeley insist that George Bush shares a psychological profile with Hitler. An editorial writer for the Kansas City Star invokes Martin Niemoller’s “First they came for the Jews…” mantra to decry the alleged excesses of the Patriot Act. Various Muslim activists are constantly suggesting that they are the Jews of the Nazified America. > [@](#): > > Retired Princeton University professor Sheldon Wolin writes of the “inverted totalitarianism” of the Republican party — “a fervently doctrinal party, zealous, ruthless, antidemocratic, and boasting a near majority” — as a stand-in for a Nazi party which doesn’t need to use “totalitarian thugs” to attain power. He writes: > > No doubt these remarks will be dismissed by some as alarmist, but I want to go further and name the emergent political system “inverted totalitarianism.” By inverted I mean that while the current system and its operatives share with Nazism the aspiration toward unlimited power and aggressive expansionism, their methods and actions seem upside down. For example, in Weimar Germany, before the Nazis took power, the “streets” were dominated by totalitarian-oriented gangs of toughs, and whatever there was of democracy was confined to the government. In the United States, however, it is the streets where democracy is most alive — while the real danger lies with an increasingly unbridled government. > [@](#): > > “It’s going a bit far to compare the Bush of 2003 to the Hitler of 1933,” writes Dave Lindorff in “Bush and Hitler: The Strategy of Fear,” which according to York’s article appeared in February on the site [Counterpunch.org](http://Counterpunch.org). “Bush simply is not the orator that Hitler was. But comparisons of the Bush administration’s fear-mongering tactics to those practiced so successfully and with such terrible results by Hitler and Goebbels . . . are not at all out of line.” > [@](#): > > THE White House last night lambasted Herta Däubler-Gmelin, the German justice minister, for describing President Bush’s Iraq policy as comparable to the methods of Adolf Hitler. “Bush wants to divert attention from domestic difficulties,” she said. "That is a popular method. Hitler has done that before.’ > [@](#): > > For example, a recent edition of “The Free Press” featured a cover with President Bush and Hitler spliced together. > [@](#): > > Democrat moneyman George Soros keeps inserting his foot deeper into his mouth as he ratchets up his monomaniacal quest to defeat President Bush. > > “It is the central focus of my life,” Soros told the Democrat pressure group [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) on Monday. The Washington Post quoted him as saying that ending Bush’s presidency was for him “a matter of life and death.” > > Soros told [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) that Bush administration was reminiscent of Hitler’s Third Reich. “When I hear Bush say, ‘You’re either with us or against us,’ it reminds me of the Germans.” > [@](#): > > In separate comments, Soros told the Post that Bush’s foreign policy conjured up memories of Nazi slogans on the walls, such as “Der Feind Hort mit” (“The enemy is listening”). And you ignored this: [http://www.nogw.com/nazibush.html](http://www.nogw.com/nazibush.html) ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/142 "2004-01-09T01:53:08Z")
Scylla, I know you’re just a knee-jerk, Bush-fellating moron, but do you really think anybody is going to accept that the people you listed–other than Rangel, Owen, and Byrd–are “Democrats”? George Soros? The German justice minister? Too stupid for words. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/143 "2004-01-09T02:09:24Z")
No, pal, you had your chance. You coulda played straight, you didn’t. You threw a whole bunch of bogus cites at me on the presumption, apparently, that I’m really, _really_ stupid. I’m not. You lose. Half of these cites are from the same pile of drivel you tried to foist off before, you just clipped off the pertintent embarrassments. Quotes from opinon pieces in _National Review Online_ just aren’t going to cut it, **Scylla** , and you insult my intelligence and that of any innocent passerby. Come on, man, who you kidding here? That quote from Rangel is at least a couple years old, and Herta Dauber-Gamelin is a fucking _German_, for chrissake! A German! So when _are_ the Democrat primary caucuses in Dusseldorf? You think maybe Dean has a better chance in the Berlin primaries, or Aachen? And Soros? Speaks for the Democratic party? Soros? Let me pull your coat over here. Here’s how this works. You offer a cite, then you offer the link. That way, if you offer two quotes from the same cite as though they were two _different_ cites, you’ll be busted. And deservedly so. Got two bucks says that at least two of the quotes “cited” above are from the same source and date. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/144 "2004-01-09T02:11:27Z")
Heh. Soros coughed up $5 MM to [moveon.org](http://moveon.org), the very people who didn’t “sponsor” the ads and presumably didn’t “sponsor” him when he made those remarks to the very group. Another $10 MM to Americans Coming Together. $20 mm to the John Podesta’s Center for American Progress. He’s given to and raised money for Howard Dean, John Kerry, Dick Gephardt and Wesley Clark. Yeah, I’m going with “Democrat.” The German guy? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/145 "2004-01-09T02:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Scylla, I know you’re just a knee-jerk, Bush-fellating moron, \*\* And I know you like to put on women’s underwear and crush gerbils with your stilletto heels for sexual gratification. > [@](#): > > do you really think anybody is going to accept that the people you listed–other than Rangel, Owen, and Byrd–are “Democrats”? George Soros? The German justice minister? I have no problem affiliating Soros with the Democratic party. Sheldon Wolin appears pretty liberal as does Dave Lindorff based on a sampling of their works. I suppose though that they could be secretly voting Republican. > [@](#): > > Too stupid for words. Oh I agree. being asked for cites for “There’s been a lot of noises from the Dems coming pretty close to the line, comparing the current administration to Hitler’s Germany” is pretty fucking stupid. Your stance of steadfast denial that Democrats have made such comparisons does leave me pretty speechless. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/146 "2004-01-09T02:27:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*And I know you like to put on women’s underwear and crush gerbils with your stilletto heels for sexual gratification… \*\* Christ, **Minty** , he told you he’d still respect you in the morning, and you believed him. Now he’s telling everybody! When will you ever learn, you silly little slut!? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/147 "2004-01-09T02:33:19Z")
I deny no such thing. It’s a big party. We’ve got our share of Godwin-loving imbeciles. I’m just pointing out that your list sucks ass as an attempt to prove “There’s been lots of noise from the Dems . . . comparing the current administration to Hitler’s Germany.” And by the way, do also take note that Rangel and Owens were speaking about the Gingrich Revolution, nigh on a decade ago. Certainly nothing to do with “the current administration.” Hell, I think Georgie Boy was still getting over his hangover back in those days. And Soros? A Democrat? Get real. Yeah, he’s pumping money into the Anybody-But-Bush campaign, but even a cursory look at his political stances over the years show that he’s anything but a Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/148 "2004-01-09T02:44:24Z")
Whilst it’s true that many of his positions are far to the left of or otherwise not connected to the democratic party (marijuana legalization, euthanisia, etc.) he opposed welfare reform, gives generously to pro-choice groups, personally engineered the Mexican Peso bailout, is a strong supporter of multinationalism led by the UN, gave soft money to the DNC back when it was legal and supports several current Democratic candidates for President. As it happens, I agree with him on some of that stuff, but you have to admit that those are mostly associated with Democrats, yes? Is there some policy position you’re aware of that would make him not a Democrat? He’s a Democrat to the extent he’s anything. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/149 "2004-01-09T02:45:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*I deny no such thing. It’s a big party. We’ve got our share of Godwin-loving imbeciles. Then why do you and Lucy want cites for the obvious? > [@](#): > > I’m just pointing out that your list sucks ass as an attempt to prove “There’s been lots of noise from the Dems . . . comparing the current administration to Hitler’s Germany.” I guess than you think Soros is a conservative, and Wolin and Lindorrf subscribe to Rush’s newsletter, the Democratic undergrown is a libertarian group, and all those posters and covers and such were all drawn up and published by Whigs and Torries? This has got to be one of the stupidest stances I’ve seen you take. There’s tons of examples there, and I just scraped that off of google in about 3 minutes. > [@](#): > > And by the way, do also take note that Rangel and Owens were speaking about the Gingrich Revolution, nigh on a decade ago. Certainly nothing to do with “the current administration.” I’ll give you that and the German, too. > [@](#): > > \*\*And Soros? A Democrat? Get real. Yeah, he’s pumping money into the Anybody-But-Bush campaign, but even a cursory look at his political stances over the years show that he’s anything but a Democrat. \*\* So I guess you’re with Homebrew here about [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org) not having any ties to the Democratic party. You’re not going to give me George Soros as a Democrat, are you? Weenie. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/150 "2004-01-09T02:56:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*No, pal, you had your chance. You coulda played straight, you didn’t. You threw a whole bunch of bogus cites at me on the presumption, apparently, that I’m really, _really_ stupid. Yet you asked for cites for “Dems comparing the current administration to Hitler’s Germany.” It’s as if you’ve never heard such a thing, and needed proof because it sounded like a fabrication. I **do** think that’s very very stupid. So let me ask you straight out. Did you ask for the cite because you are this stupid, or did you ask for it just to fuck with me? Straight answer please. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/151 "2004-01-09T03:01:14Z")
Maybe Soros. 'Cause frankly, I got no idea. Soros is definitely _something_ and a whole lot of it, but whether that something is a “Democrat” in the sense of American politics…I dunno. Its too many for me, I fold. But Jonah Goldberg? _National Review Online_? Puh-_leeeeze_. And yes, we know you scraped it off of Google. It shows. You scooped up a ladle full of net-scum, slopped it onto a plate and said “Here! Cites! Eat 'em up, yum!” ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/152 "2004-01-09T03:11:47Z")
'Luce Could I have that straight answer, please? Here’s the question again: you asked for cites for “Dems comparing the current administration to Hitler’s Germany.” It’s as if you’ve never heard such a thing, and needed proof because it sounded like a fabrication. I **do** think that’s very very stupid. So let me ask you straight out. Did you ask for the cite because you are this stupid, or did you ask for it just to fuck with me? Straight answer please. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/153 "2004-01-09T03:35:41Z")
Soros has been an advocate of open government and open markets, and he’s put a lot of money behind those positions. But those positions are grounded in a libertarian streak a mile wide, as the drug and euthanasia positions make pretty well obvious. Soros certainly ain’t your run-of-the-mill billionaire, but he’s a very poor fit for the Democratic Party. His checkbook, on the other hand, fits very well. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/154 "2004-01-09T04:11:04Z")
…And he says I weasel. Soros rights big checks for all kinds of Democratic activism, supports Democratic candidates, speaks at Moveon functions, is a huge Clinton supporter… So naturally, according to Minty Green he’s a libertarian. Meanwhile, Homebrew thinks Moveon is a nonaffiliated organization. Elucidator thinks no Democrat ever compared Bush to Hitler and any cites showing otherwise don’t count. Mhendo thinks that if Moveon officials post ads on Moveons website saying they are sponsored by moveon that means Moveon didn’t sponsor them. To quote the great sage George Michaels. "All you have to do, is take these lies, and make them true somehow. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/155 "2004-01-09T04:34:47Z")
He writes big checks for getting Bush II “write” the hell out of the White House. Big fuckin’ deal. I wrote a check two days ago to a Republican who’s running to kick a dangerous, loony, piece of shit incumbent “write” the hell out of an elected state office. Am I a Republican? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/156 "2004-01-09T04:50:03Z")
Plus, you’re engaging in your usual weasel words. I did not say Soros was “a libertarian.” I said his “positions are grounded in a libertarian streak a mile wide” and “he’s a very poor fit for the Democratic Party.” Nevertheless, god bless Mr. Soros and his checkbook. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/157 "2004-01-09T05:04:31Z")
You know, maybe we ought to concede **Scylla** his point. As to “sponsorship”. You put your name to something, you bring something into the discourse, be it an “ad” or post or a contest entry…you take responsibility for it. Regardless. No excuse can really be accepted, one must take personal responsibility, none of this “fell through the cracks” stuff. Just for instance, this cogent site offered by **Scylla** as proof of Democratic skullduggery and slander …[http://www.madkane.com/wwwboard/messages/3131.html](http://www.madkane.com/wwwboard/messages/3131.html)… Fascinating nuggets of statistical wisdom abound! Did you know… "More than 1,600 Whites are murdered by Blacks each year. Blacks murder Whites at 18 times the rate Whites murder Blacks. About 1 million Whites were murdered, robbed, assaulted, or raped by Blacks in 1992. In the last 30 years, 170 million violent and nonviolent crimes were committed by Blacks against Whites in the U.S. " on another page, this droll gem leaps out… “See the World Libertarian Order site and our correspondence with Timothy McVeigh…” I wont even hazard a guess. By your reasoning, it follows that your are directly and personally responsible for the above. No, you didn’t produce it, no, you didn’t even necessarily see it, but you sponsored it, it arrived under your name, offered as a cite, offered as a source of objective fact. Unless we are to believe that you merely dashed this shit onto the screen without even reading it? A man of your admitted integrity? Perish the thought. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/158 "2004-01-09T05:12:32Z")
I’m fighting ignorance, not the JEW-nited States of America. [sub]Yeah, I caught that one too, **luci**. But given the track record of the Usual Weasel, I figured that would just turn into fodder for some kind of claim that Democrats lynch black folks and pack the Jews in cattle cars.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/159 "2004-01-09T05:17:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*He writes big checks for getting Bush II “write” the hell out of the White House. Big fuckin’ deal. I wrote a check two days ago to a Republican who’s running to kick a dangerous, loony, piece of shit incumbent “write” the hell out of an elected state office. Am I a Republican? \*\* Yeah my dyslexia’s showing. Have fun with it. He also writes checks to start liberal think tanks like The Centre for American Progress, so John Podesta can run them. Wasn’t he Clinton’s chief of staff? He backed Hillary’s senate campaign. He’s given 15 million to Moveon, and Act Together and pledged 75 million more. Being a card carrying Bush hater is pretty much what being a Democrat is about these days. It certainly doesn’t disqualify him as you suggest. After 90 mil, the question isn’t whether Soros is a Dem, it’s whether or not he owns the party. I can see why it offends you to have this association with him. After all, he is a convicted inside trader and speaks proudly about having made his fortune at the expense of English taxpayers through currency manipulation. But not a Democrat. Okeydokey counselor. Any True Scotsmen around? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071/160 "2004-01-09T05:20:44Z")
Elucidator: I didn’t look very closely at that cite, nor did I notice what you have shown. Had I done so, I would not have linked to it. I am sincerely sorry for having done so. Now I’m wondering if you are going to give me a straight answer to the question I’ve asked. It’s really a very simple question and I would sincerely appreciate your answering it for me, because I’d like to know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moveon-hitler-and-bush-hooo-boy/223071.md?page=9)